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Old 05-22-2014, 10:48 AM   #1
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Default ITT we discuss why not to turbo your daily bent rod

So, six months ago I decided that I was going to add forced induction to my DD 2000 LS. I'd always had an inkling of an idea that I would like to, but at this point I made the conscious decision this was going to happen. I went to look at another miata that was for sale, as the price was awesome and it had lots of parts already that I planned on adding later (sparcos, roll bar, suspension), but alas, I wanted a DD, and the lack of power steering, A/C, and other things deterred me from buying it. After talking with the gentleman selling the car for a bit, and mentioning my planned endeavors into the world of forced induction, he walks into the garage and comes back out with this tubular, bottom mount manifold:



He didn't know the manufacturer, and told me he purchased it from ebay, but the tubing used is incredibly stout, and the welds looked nicely done. It needed to be port matched, but the price was right, and just like that the first of many more purchases to come was made.

Fast forward a few months later: I made my next purchase unassembeled MS3, MS3X, AEM wideband, another MAP sensor for barometric correction (MPX4250AP), and a tyco 174518-7 connector. I will be following WestFieldMX5's guide to making a PNP MS3. Ordered a few new tips for my soldering iron as well, and will begin assembling that this weekend. I have also purchased WestFieldMX5's alternator circuit, so I can be lazy and not have to swap to an NA alternator.

So, the plan for stage 1: I will install the wideband into my oem midpipe (I'll just buy another bung when I replace the exhaust later), and install the MS. I have several friends with MS cars that are going to help get me on the right track tuning, but I plan on having a decent amount of time with the car N/A to learn to become (at least somewhat) proficient with tuning in MS before forced induction comes along to break things. During this time I will continue to purchase and fabricate parts. I've got access to a lift and tig/mig, and am pretty damn good at using one of them. I've began teaching myself to tig, but have someone else significantly more skilled than myself that has already said they are willing to help me as needed if I choose to fabricate the exhaust/downpipe myself. That being said, I have a strong interest in learning to weld, particularly tig, and will be trying to do as much of this myself as possible. At some point during the learning to tune/purchasing phase, I will replace the clutch. I am hoping to be somewhere around 225ft-lb, so the plan as of now is to go with the FM stage 1. Also somewhere here in phase 1, sell style bar that came on the car, buy roll bar.

Things always seem to go smoother in the engineering world with phases and deadlines, so this is basically the time table I'm hoping to stick with:

Plan is for phase 1 to end the last week in June.

Phase 2: Will be fab work. All parts purchased by end of phase. Estimated end date: July.

Phase 3: Will be the actual install and completion of build. Estimated End Date: Second week in August.

A few aspects of the build (Open to improvement and suggestions)[LIST][*]Plan as of now is to go with an sr20 T28 (garrett #s (all research points to this being a good poor mans alternative to a gt2560r)[*]Internal wastegate setup for now[*]Budget: I am well aware that car builds get out of hand quickly, and that odds are I will blow whatever budget I set. That being said, I am hoping to finish somewhere around $2k. I am at $817 with a manifold, MS3X, wideband, and (depending on whether this free intercooler I got fits or not) an intercooler without plumbing. I think if I stick to my guns and fabricate as much as possible, and keep my eyes on the forums for most other parts, it should be possible to stick close to this goal.[*]Injectors will be 400cc+, probably rx7 or rx8 for now, just depending on what pops up on the forums in the coming months.[*]I am still doing research on bracing my manifold, and am aware I should look in to some type of nonrigid bracing to help prevent cracking (and yes, i know it will still crack eventually. Darn tubular manifolds. But, tig fix repeat)[*]I am leaning towards a 2.5" exhaust over a 3" exhaust, primarily just due to it being an easier task to make/install. Though I am still considering a 3" because spoolage.[*]I plan on using diyautotune's EBC setup[*]Planned gauges include wideband, boost, water temp, oil temp, oil pressure

Tl;Dr:
Phase 1: Manifold and wideband purchased, Build/install MS, continue to buy parts, plan and sketch potential fabrication. Install clutch. Learn to tune MS. ETA: June 30
Phase 2: Complete any fab work. All parts acquired/purchased/made. ETA July 31
Phase 3: Install turbo and tune. ETA: August 20

Any questions, comments, omgusucknoob, please feel free to ask/add.
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Last edited by Schuyler; 05-22-2014 at 11:47 AM.
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Old 05-22-2014, 10:55 AM   #2
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Very interesting. Expect to catch some flak from the elitists about your injector choice, but overall it seems like you have a solid grasp of what's going on.

I can't say that I recognize that manifold, though it looks like someone put some effort into it. I'm curious as to whether this is merely an artifact of the photo:

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Old 05-22-2014, 11:17 AM   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe Perez View Post
Very interesting. Expect to catch some flak from the elitists about your injector choice, but overall it seems like you have a solid grasp of what's going on.

I can't say that I recognize that manifold, though it looks like someone put some effort into it. I'm curious as to whether this is merely an artifact of the photo:
(image removed for space saving)
I honestly haven't given injectors THAT much research time yet, mainly consisting of just reading build threads and the injector FAQ. I am still considering the ID1000s in case i choose to go e85 later on. Just still being in college, the budget on this one is going to be tight, and I might have to make a few judgement calls on parts like that. Not to say they won't be swapped out later though. If I am happy with a turbo miata and plan on keeping it around, I'm sure I'll catch the forced induction bug and start building the motor and ramping things up after I graduate and am more financially stable.

What you were seeing there is just an artifact from reducing the resolution for this thread. Here is a full resolution link to the manifold.
http://i.imgur.com/8znoAnF.jpg
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Old 05-22-2014, 11:29 AM   #4
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You get props for having obviously done some homework here, and making rational give-and-take decisions concerning budget vs. quality.


Also, don't worry about huge images, just embed 'em directly. The forum automatically re-scales as needed, and very few of our users are still on 56k dialup connections.




This manifold seems oddly familiar, but I can't quite put my finger on it...
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Old 05-22-2014, 11:43 AM   #5
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Well if you remember, please let me know lol. I'm curious as to where it came from. I'm a weeeee bit worried about the port match, as it appears the fabricator (i can't think of a better word atm) squished the pipes too much, and one of the inlet holes into the manifold is too small. I gave it to a guy in the SCCA I know that has a fair bit of experience port matching, and he was going to take a look at it for me. I haven't heard back yet, but he was either going to get it as close as possible, or use the tig and add in some metal for a 100% match. I believe he is going to try the first method, and then see how things look from there, and how much the gap is off. I'll be sure to post pictures when I get it back.

The guy that sold it to me said it's the second one he's had. The first one he got, the turbo hit the block when he test fit it. So he sent it back, and they sent him this one, that they forgot to port match. Got put on the back burner due to needing to be port matched, he bought an NC, and I suppose when I came along he saw a good home for it. I am going to try to measure the thickness of the tubing, but the manifold is quite heavy. The flanges are mild, but the rest (obviously from the picture) is stainless.

edit: added to above, but I've also bought WestFieldMX5's alternator circuit so I can be lazy and not swap alternators.
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Old 05-22-2014, 03:10 PM   #6
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I've seen one just like that before, with those welded-in extensions in the runners that cross over. I know I have. I can't remember where or who had it, lol...

good luck with the build. When I saw your budget I lol'd but then with you already buying the spendy bits and goal to use a used turbo, you might be close.
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Old 05-22-2014, 04:39 PM   #7
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I went ahead and went with 3" exhaust, because, once you decide to make it yourself, it's not much more cost or work. And it has been done so many times before, that you know it will fit. It just takes patience.

You are in Easley?. I am in Seneca. My build is similar, 1999 model, except log manifold for a high and forward approach. Worked well with A/C and P/S. If you want to come by and see it sometime, PM me.

Did cost me more that $2, though. Clutch and needed new radiator factored in, and I didn't build my own MS. I never really added up everything, and have some stuff left over.

Welcome.
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Old 05-22-2014, 04:54 PM   #8
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Originally Posted by DNMakinson View Post
I went ahead and went with 3" exhaust, because, once you decide to make it yourself, it's not much more cost or work. And it has been done so many times before, that you know it will fit. It just takes patience.

You are in Easley?. I am in Seneca. My build is similar, 1999 model, except log manifold for a high and forward approach. Worked well with A/C and P/S. If you want to come by and see it sometime, PM me.

Did cost me more that $2, though. Clutch and needed new radiator factored in, and I didn't build my own MS. I never really added up everything, and have some stuff left over.

Welcome.
To be honest with you, I haven't even test fit that manifold with a turbo yet to see if it will work with A/C and P/S. I'm reallllllllly kind of hoping it does, otherwise I will have to seriously rethink a few things (Like selling that manifold). With the 3" exhaust, is there enough clearance for everything? I feel like I read somewhere that a 3" exhaust is not compatible with the NB bracing, and the bracing would have to be removed. As far as your offer, I have actually never seen a turbo miata in person, and would certainly like to be able to give one a look over and take a few pictures for reference later. So, I will probably be getting in contact with you at some point to try and make that happen. Thanks!
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Old 05-23-2014, 09:38 PM   #9
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Lez do dis.

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Old 05-23-2014, 11:29 PM   #10
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3" exhaust fits on NB cars with bracing, tight but no rattles.
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Old 05-25-2014, 03:24 AM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HHammerly View Post
3" exhaust fits on NB cars with bracing, tight but no rattles.
Thanks for the picture Hammerely


So the basic components of the MS are basically in, save for one. I tried to desolder one of the inductors as I forgot to mount it raised, and it broke. So, after I inevitably spend $6 to get this $0.10 component shipped to my door, the MS should hopefully be done.

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Old 06-02-2014, 03:00 PM   #12
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Ordered some more parts:
  • 545cc rx7 injectors (Used, fingers crossed they're in good nick)
  • Stainless Steel braided oil lines (originally from BEGi)
  • SR20 T25 (0.80a/r) (Smoking, needs rebuilding, ordering the $80 kit from gpopshop)
  • Autometer boost gauge (full sweep, 20psi max)
  • Full A-pillar 2 gauge pod
  • Replacement inductors for the ones that broke

I decided to go with the SR20 T25 0.80 a/r turbo, as 1: The price was right, and 2: At 225hp, it should fit my needs with relatively quick spool (though i will pretty much be at the end of its efficiency). I figured anything more than 225, I'm going to want to build the motor anyway, as it seems like most people start encountering issues with rod deformation and 5 speed failure around 250whp. If things get that far in, I can sell this and buy a 2876 or something else.

Now for a question: I am using the following schematic for wiring the megasquirt. However, I wanted to verify two changes. They seem straight forward enough to me, just figured I'd post here to double check, and in the spirit of a build thread show what exactly I did/am about to do. Basically just instead of having the lamda wire go to the tyco connector, put a connector on that wire coming from the db37 and go straight to the wideband. Also, do the same with the IAT sensor (after boost is added, will go to ecu connector for now).

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Old 06-04-2014, 11:17 AM   #13
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So, going to test fit this weekend. I have about 30% confidence I will NOT hit A/C. Anyone wanna chime in and try to make that number climb? lol. Place your bets now.

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Old 06-04-2014, 11:25 AM   #14
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that design looks very similar to the newer begi s4
...which clears both ps and ac, though just ever so barely.
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Old 06-04-2014, 11:26 AM   #15
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That's a lot of manifold for such a tiny turbo.

(Don't take that as criticism. I like it.)
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Old 06-04-2014, 11:29 AM   #16
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should make some man-torque
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Old 06-04-2014, 06:46 PM   #17
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Quote:
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should make some man-torque
That's the nice thing about getting the 2554 equivalent instead of the 2560. I can safely run ALLOFIT. Well, more like ALLOFIT

Quote:
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That's a lot of manifold for such a tiny turbo.

(Don't take that as criticism. I like it.)
The price was right. lol
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Old 06-09-2014, 09:22 AM   #18
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Megasquirt is going in after work
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Old 06-09-2014, 09:49 AM   #19
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How did the mani / turbo fitting come out?
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Old 06-09-2014, 09:56 AM   #20
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How did the mani / turbo fitting come out?
The Db37 -> Tyco harness ended up taking more of my time this weekend than expected, and I ran out of time to go Columbia and pick up my manifold. Hopefully going to pick it up when I'm down there on Friday, but I'm out of town and won't be back until the following Monday. So I will have to test-fit after work one day next week. Such is life I suppose.
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