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Old 10-20-2015, 04:55 PM   #1681
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shuiend View Post
This is the first time I think it is a stuck relief valve. Below are the oiling issues I have ad over the past 5 years.

1. Originally did not put the oil relief valve in the oil pump. Did not realize it had been removed from the oil pump I had used. No damage was done to the motor, I added the relief valve in and the car ran great.

2. Added on glow shift oil sandwich plate and an RX7 oil cooler. Somehow the sandwich plate caused a blockage. Did not open the plug on the oil pump to test there. Pulled motor and had machine shop rebuild with a new BE vvt oil pump.

3. Tried new rebuilt motor with sandwich plate, had no oil pressure when trying to prime the pump, figured out it the sandwich plate. Removed it and oil pressure was good. Spun the thrust bearing while trying to prime originally, but motor was running good it seemed. Figured out about 750 miles later that crank could move in and out. Pulled motor and figured out what was wrong.

4. Rebuilt motor in a new bottom end. About 750 miles after driving it lost oil pressure. This is where I am at now.
On case 1, what oil pump were you running? A stock pump, or BE Pump? Seems weird a stock pump wouldn't have a relief valve.

That sucks man, you've had a rough time with this. Good luck moving forward. I know it sucks have repeat failures, I've had them myself, last 2 motors in a row ended with a piston broke in half.
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Old 10-20-2015, 05:41 PM   #1682
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I have seen two Honda B-series dump **** tons of oil on the floor from that damned Glowshit plate.. And another D that never got oil pressure either, and toasted every bearing in the thing.

Depending on what you stack them with (RX7 cooler in your case), it can cause a blockage. I love the Mocal plate, although pricey. Still be aware of the orientation the inlet and outlet holes in the plates form, after installing.

Such a bummer man, that machine shop sounds suspect too.
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Old 10-20-2015, 07:28 PM   #1683
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Quote:
Originally Posted by patsmx5 View Post
On case 1, what oil pump were you running? A stock pump, or BE Pump? Seems weird a stock pump wouldn't have a relief valve.

That sucks man, you've had a rough time with this. Good luck moving forward. I know it sucks have repeat failures, I've had them myself, last 2 motors in a row ended with a piston broke in half.
I bought a 94 bottom end that had already been taken apart from a member on here. It was extremely cheap. So it was the OEM oil pump that I put BE gears into. I had never seen an oil pump before in my life, nor knew they had a relief valve at the time that I put it together. I sort of assumed the hole was supposed to be there or something. Had I known about needing a relief valve I would have spent the $5 in parts up front and reinstalled it. It was an error purely on me, that I learned from. No real damage was done except for me having to pull the motor again and such.

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I have seen two Honda B-series dump **** tons of oil on the floor from that damned Glowshit plate.. And another D that never got oil pressure either, and toasted every bearing in the thing.

Depending on what you stack them with (RX7 cooler in your case), it can cause a blockage. I love the Mocal plate, although pricey. Still be aware of the orientation the inlet and outlet holes in the plates form, after installing.

Such a bummer man, that machine shop sounds suspect too.
Yeah I now only recommend Mocal sandwich plates. One day when I get back to adding an oil cooler back to the car I will be using one.

The machinist was the best that I could find in the area. The first time he built the block there was nothing that he did wrong. I removed the glow shift plate before he got the block, and installed it again after I got it back. It was only after I could not prime the motor that I figured out it was the sandwich plate.
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Old 10-20-2015, 09:13 PM   #1684
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Quote:
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I bought a 94 bottom end that had already been taken apart from a member on here. It was extremely cheap. So it was the OEM oil pump that I put BE gears into. I had never seen an oil pump before in my life, nor knew they had a relief valve at the time that I put it together. I sort of assumed the hole was supposed to be there or something. Had I known about needing a relief valve I would have spent the $5 in parts up front and reinstalled it. It was an error purely on me, that I learned from. No real damage was done except for me having to pull the motor again and such.



Yeah I now only recommend Mocal sandwich plates. One day when I get back to adding an oil cooler back to the car I will be using one.

The machinist was the best that I could find in the area. The first time he built the block there was nothing that he did wrong. I removed the glow shift plate before he got the block, and installed it again after I got it back. It was only after I could not prime the motor that I figured out it was the sandwich plate.
Ah, gotcha. Damn you've had bad luck!

I had a similar situation long time ago. When I was a kid I did a 302 swap into a 94 thunderbird. When I got it all put together it wouldn't prime for oil pressure no matter how much or how long I spun it over. Finally did the drill down the distributor hole trick, still it wouldn't prime. Then I found the pickup tube laying in the box in the garage....

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Old 10-20-2015, 09:49 PM   #1685
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Something definitely went through the motor. Oil pump is fucked.



Checked the cam caps and several are scored badly.

Attached Thumbnails
Shuiend tries built motor #4, lets see how I break this one-wxpuliv.jpg   Shuiend tries built motor #4, lets see how I break this one-rnym63a.jpg   Shuiend tries built motor #4, lets see how I break this one-qficbgt.jpg   Shuiend tries built motor #4, lets see how I break this one-kl50fz7.jpg  
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Old 10-20-2015, 10:44 PM   #1686
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Nasty. Gotta keep it clean. How's the bottom of the dipstick handle, btw?
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Old 10-20-2015, 11:00 PM   #1687
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Call me crazy, but the oil pump is pretty much the most well-lubricated part in the engine, right? All that scoring in the pump (looks to be scored everywhere from the pics) makes me think the gears didn't have enough clearance to the pump body.
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Old 10-21-2015, 06:58 AM   #1688
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Looks to me like there was either a lack of oil leading to debris in the oil, or debris in the oil leading to a lack of oil.
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Old 10-21-2015, 07:22 AM   #1689
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Quote:
Originally Posted by patsmx5 View Post
Call me crazy, but the oil pump is pretty much the most well-lubricated part in the engine, right? All that scoring in the pump (looks to be scored everywhere from the pics) makes me think the gears didn't have enough clearance to the pump body.
There is scoring all over the pump. When running my fingernail across the surfaces it catches. Honestly I am not sure how you would alter the clearance of the gears. When the motor was last apart we pulled the gears out of the pump to fill it with engine lube. None of the scoring was there then.

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Looks to me like there was either a lack of oil leading to debris in the oil, or debris in the oil leading to a lack of oil.
I think something went through and caused the lack of oil pressure, not the other way around.

Whats the easiest way to dispose of a block? I don't think I can just toss it in my garbage can.
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Old 10-21-2015, 07:58 AM   #1690
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Yeah, looks like something went through and did some "machine work" on your innards. Bad luck man.

I don't think the BE pumps are necessarily bad, just that the QC could be better. Right now I'm paranoid about oil pressure. I've got a Bosch sending unit on my Mocal sandwich plate & a real OPG in the cockpit. There's also a Big Red Light in the dash where the emergency flasher button was, hooked to the OEM sender as a redundant indicator - it comes on when the oil pressure is less than 10 psi. I've also got a mechanical OPG in the engine bay connected to a gallery in the head.

Like I said...paranoid.

Do people dispose of engine blocks?!! (I've got two bare blocks in my garage now from previous fails)
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Old 10-21-2015, 08:04 AM   #1691
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Clean it up and make a heavy *** coffee table out of it.... gotta wonder what broke/chipped/disintegrated and turned to sand inside the engine - or started with no oil causing bearing failure then debris. Bad luck Lars - dam.
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Old 10-21-2015, 09:10 AM   #1692
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I have feel the BE pump failed, then the rest followed.

I have absolutely 0% faith in BE products.
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Old 10-21-2015, 09:18 AM   #1693
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Well the main reason they switched from gears-only to full pumps was because several people had serious issues with the gears of old, which Travis stated originated from improper tolerances when installing into a pump. But who knows
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Old 10-21-2015, 09:41 AM   #1694
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You don't need to dump the block. If it hasn't had a rod go through it, it will still be good. Overbore it and it will be fine for someone.
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Old 10-21-2015, 09:44 AM   #1695
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Clean it up and make a heavy *** coffee table out of it.... gotta wonder what broke/chipped/disintegrated and turned to sand inside the engine - or started with no oil causing bearing failure then debris. Bad luck Lars - dam.
I already have another block in my garage earmarked for that purpose. I don't think I have enough room in my house for multiple engine tables.

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You don't need to dump the block. If it hasn't had a rod go through it, it will still be good. Overbore it and it will be fine for someone.
Would have to go up to 84.5mm pistons or something. Right now I have 3 blocks in my garage that are not "good". I have a 4th sitting in a different garage. I don't really need that many so I would like to dump some of the worst ones.
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Old 10-21-2015, 09:57 AM   #1696
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I would guess that a crusher / recycler would give you the going $/#.
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Old 10-21-2015, 10:37 AM   #1697
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I see no reason not to use that block? replace the bearings, rings and the crank then you have a short block ready.

the cyl walls and pistons don't have damage or you would have posted, right?



The head though you might need to change out, since the cams don't use replaceable bearing surfaces.
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Old 10-21-2015, 10:38 AM   #1698
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$0.04/pd steel - that's like $3 per block. Dump them on some industrial street corner - the junk guys will grab them.
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Old 10-21-2015, 10:53 AM   #1699
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Quote:
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I have feel the BE pump failed, then the rest followed.

I have absolutely 0% faith in BE products.
I had a customer assemble a motor with a BE pump which lost oil pressure after ~50 miles. The customer purchased another pump from Travis, and this pump lasted 800 miles before failing. Then his machine shop admitted they had sandblasted his valve cover with the PCV covers in place, then installed the valve cover without removing/cleaning the PCV passages, and sand had been pumping through the entire motor for the entire time.

I have seen one stuck relief valve in person, on a 100k mile OEM oil pump, and it happened ~20 miles after a turbo install (oil pan drill/tap). I've never seen a BE pump fail, and I have used/installed several over a several year period.

Lars, is this the first oil pump failure on this motor/block?
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Old 10-21-2015, 10:53 AM   #1700
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Everything that you've shown doesn't look great BUT:
--Those oil pump gears/housing are not that bad and are likely not the reason you lost oil pressure
--The two cam caps don't look unusable (maybe its just me?, I've certainly used worse..)

Did you find the source of the pressure loss? I may have missed it.
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