Shuiend tries built motor #4, lets see how I break this one - Page 87 - Miata Turbo Forum - Boost cars, acquire cats.

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Old 10-21-2015, 02:19 PM   #1721
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I explain the side wear on the aluminum pump body the same way I explain the scoring on the aluminum cam caps. All of it is caused by bearing debris, and the bearing debris was caused by a lack of oil pressure. Engines need oil pressure to run. All the oil does not magically pop out the side of the gears and into the oil passage. Some of that oil flows around the edges of the pump, where the scoring is.

If the side clearance was too tight, would the scoring not have appeared the first time he used the pump? He ran the pump, disassembled it, and found no scoring. He re-assembled, ran the pump, disassembled it, and scoring appeared. That is not what a defective part does.

Like I said, I have a lot of experience with these pumps. I put gears into an OEM pump body in 2009 when my first motor was built (clearances were checked and were correct). I've been putting those pumps in every motor, including the 2011 longblock where I broke a main bolt, cracked two main caps (#1 and #2), and the oil pump gears survived that abuse. They've gone in a dozen customer engines and half a dozen more I've built for myself, and I've never had one suddenly dump a bunch of shavings into the engine.

Last edited by Savington; 10-21-2015 at 02:33 PM.
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Old 10-21-2015, 02:24 PM   #1722
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I explain the side wear on the aluminum pump body the same way I explain the scoring on the aluminum cam caps. All of it is caused by bearing debris, and the bearing debris was caused by a lack of oil pressure. Engines need oil pressure to run. All the oil does not magically pop out the side of the gears and into the oil passage. Some of that oil flows around the edges of the pump, where the scoring is.

If the side clearance was too tight, would the scoring not have appeared the first time he used the pump? He ran the pump, disassembled it, and found no scoring. He re-assembled, ran the pump, disassembled it, and scoring appeared. That is not what a defective part does.
I already answered this, I'll just repost it.

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Your first point, I dunno, but good point. I'd have to ask how long the pump was run at first, and if it saw high rpm or boost. IF it did and it came out fine, I agree, the pump clearance wasn't the problem.
So you are saying the loss of oil pressure caused all the damage to everything, even the pump that was continuously bathed in oil. Ok, but WHY did it loose oil pressure? I'll steal your saying, it "does not magically" happen for no reason, something caused the loss of oil pressure.
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Old 10-21-2015, 02:29 PM   #1723
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Also if there is foreign object damage on bearings in multiple places, that suggest the oil pump was circulating debris before it failed to produce oil pressure.

If all the damage was in a cam bearing only, it would suggest that cam bearing failed. Same if all the damage was from a rod bearing only. If there is FOD to all the bearings throughout the engine, that does suggest the source of the debris was the pump.
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Old 10-21-2015, 02:33 PM   #1724
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Pats and Savington,

What would you two like me to take details pictures of tonight? I would like to figure out what caused this, but I know I don't have the knowledge to say for sure.

I do have a magnetic oil drain plug. It did not have any metal particles on it as far as I could tell the 3 times I drained the oil from the built motor. I ran cheap regular oil for the break in and then first 500 miles or so. I switched to Rotella T6 a few weeks before I went on this last trip.

The oil pickup tube did have metal stuck in it. I will test tonight to see if it is aluminum or steal.
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Old 10-21-2015, 02:37 PM   #1725
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If you want to get scientific, there are microscopic particles embedded in the oil relief valve. You would need the composition of those particles to determine their origin.
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Old 10-21-2015, 02:38 PM   #1726
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Pats and Savington,

What would you two like me to take details pictures of tonight? I would like to figure out what caused this, but I know I don't have the knowledge to say for sure.

I do have a magnetic oil drain plug. It did not have any metal particles on it as far as I could tell the 3 times I drained the oil from the built motor. I ran cheap regular oil for the break in and then first 500 miles or so. I switched to Rotella T6 a few weeks before I went on this last trip.

The oil pickup tube did have metal stuck in it. I will test tonight to see if it is aluminum or steal.
Sav made a good point on that you used this oil pump once, and then disassembled and said it was fine, no scoring. How was it used the first time? Did it see high RPM and boost? If so, that rules out tight pump clearances being the problem.

I would check the relief valve, see if it's stuck. I would assume it is if you lost oil pressure, but we need to diagnose exactly what really did happen (facts, not guesses) to best guess at what caused those events to happen. I'd also remove and cut open the oil filter and have a look.

Also in the future, I'd consider running 30W oil if it's just a street car. Easier on the pump (thinner oil is easier to pump), you'll get more volume of oil to the bearings, and these motors were designed for 30W unless your engine builder clearanced it for heavier oil.
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Old 10-21-2015, 02:41 PM   #1727
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If all the damage was in a cam bearing only, it would suggest that cam bearing failed. Same if all the damage was from a rod bearing only. If there is FOD to all the bearings throughout the engine, that does suggest the source of the debris was the pump.
In what world? If a bearing fails, it dumps metal shavings into the sump. Those shavings are ingested by the oil pump, then distributed to the rest of the engine. This is why the failure of a single bearing (like a spun rod bearing) will always result in bearing damage throughout the engine, as well as damage to other parts of the oiling system, like the oil pump.
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Old 10-21-2015, 02:47 PM   #1728
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In what world? If a bearing fails, it dumps metal shavings into the sump. Those shavings are ingested by the oil pump, then distributed to the rest of the engine. This is why the failure of a single bearing (like a spun rod bearing) will always result in bearing damage throughout the engine, as well as damage to other parts of the oiling system, like the oil pump.
You're killing me Sav. I know we've both disassembled engines that had bearing failures. I KNOW you know what I meant.

But let me explain for everyone else.

If your motor spun a bearing that caused this, yes all the bearings will show some damage, but one of them is going to be dead in a major way. Spun rod bearing? Big end of rod will get so hot it will discolor. Bearing will be almost gone it will have worn so much. It will be OBVIOUS that it spun a bearing first that caused the failure. I've disassembled the big end of a rod before that had no bearing it wore some much.

These cases make diagnosis of "what failed first" really easy.

What I would expect if the oil pump failed first, is that his motor didn't spin any bearings, but they all show some FOD like the pics he's already posted. Whatever part looks "the worst", I'd say there's a decent chance that's what failed first.
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Old 10-21-2015, 02:48 PM   #1729
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Originally Posted by patsmx5 View Post
Sav made a good point on that you used this oil pump once, and then disassembled and said it was fine, no scoring. How was it used the first time? Did it see high RPM and boost? If so, that rules out tight pump clearances being the problem.

I would check the relief valve, see if it's stuck. I would assume it is if you lost oil pressure, but we need to diagnose exactly what really did happen (facts, not guesses) to best guess at what caused those events to happen. I'd also remove and cut open the oil filter and have a look.

Also in the future, I'd consider running 30W oil if it's just a street car. Easier on the pump (thinner oil is easier to pump), you'll get more volume of oil to the bearings, and these motors were designed for 30W unless your engine builder clearanced it for heavier oil.
First time it was used for less then 750 miles. I would say less then a dozen boosted pulls with less then 10psi, and hardly any high rpm use. Oil pressure was there during that time. As the car warmed up pressure would fall some, more then normal, but it never ran without pressure. What gave me a clue something was wrong with the motor that time was I would push in the clutch at idle and my idle KPA would go up 10-15kpa. It turned out that was due to the crank moving forward and backwards when I pushed in the clutch, due to thrust washer spinning out. Bearings and crank actually looked fine in the block when we pulled it apart. The walls were scored up a bit from the pistons moving around, which is why I switched to a different block and crank.

I do not think the relief valve was stuck when I pulled the motor, but I am not positive. It was all the way pressed against the cir-clip that holds the spring and cap in. I could push the cap and spring down and up reasonably easily and it was not catching anywhere in the hole. Looking in the hole I see a little bit of scoring, but it was not enough for my fingernail to catch on it. I have since pulled out the spring, cap, and 2 shims and they all look normal.

Tonight I will pull all bearing caps off and take detailed pictures of them all. I only have my potato camera phone, so pictures will not be perfect.
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Old 10-21-2015, 02:53 PM   #1730
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First time it was used for less then 750 miles. I would say less then a dozen boosted pulls with less then 10psi, and hardly any high rpm use. Oil pressure was there during that time. As the car warmed up pressure would fall some, more then normal, but it never ran without pressure. What gave me a clue something was wrong with the motor that time was I would push in the clutch at idle and my idle KPA would go up 10-15kpa. It turned out that was due to the crank moving forward and backwards when I pushed in the clutch, due to thrust washer spinning out. Bearings and crank actually looked fine in the block when we pulled it apart. The walls were scored up a bit from the pistons moving around, which is why I switched to a different block and crank.

I do not think the relief valve was stuck when I pulled the motor, but I am not positive. It was all the way pressed against the cir-clip that holds the spring and cap in. I could push the cap and spring down and up reasonably easily and it was not catching anywhere in the hole. Looking in the hole I see a little bit of scoring, but it was not enough for my fingernail to catch on it. I have since pulled out the spring, cap, and 2 shims and they all look normal.

Tonight I will pull all bearing caps off and take detailed pictures of them all. I only have my potato camera phone, so pictures will not be perfect.
Then it's at least possible that the pump was too tight all along and didn't show itself until it saw high RPM. High RPM is when the crank flexes the most, and that's when the inner gear is going to be flexing as it's installed on the front of the crank.
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Old 10-21-2015, 02:53 PM   #1731
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Not to derail this discussion, what would be a proper way to feed oil to a new BE pump?

Disconnect fuel, load up with amsoil break in oil, give it a few cranks to prime the pump?
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Old 10-21-2015, 02:57 PM   #1732
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To prime an engine, I always just pull the plugs, pull the fuel injector fuse, and spin until I have oil pressure for a few seconds.
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Old 10-21-2015, 03:00 PM   #1733
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Not to derail this discussion, what would be a proper way to feed oil to a new BE pump?

Disconnect fuel, load up with amsoil break in oil, give it a few cranks to prime the pump?
I now attach a shop vac to my turbo oil feed line, then turn on the vacuum until I have built oil pressure and see oil coming into the shop vac. I will post a picture of the contraption I made.
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Old 10-21-2015, 03:07 PM   #1734
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and you feed off the pressure sender too right? so past the oil pump and filter?
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Old 10-21-2015, 03:10 PM   #1735
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and you feed off the pressure sender too right? so past the oil pump and filter?
I feed off the port on the drive side of the block since I have a 94 block. When I tested on Monday night, I actually pulled from both the VVT feed line and the turbo feed line, both being after the pump and filter.
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Old 10-21-2015, 03:18 PM   #1736
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So if the high-RPM crank flex caused the inner gear to rub against the pump housing, why is the scoring uniform across the entire inner face of the pump?
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Old 10-21-2015, 03:37 PM   #1737
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I dunno what caused this. But the last BP I opened up with roughly 60k miles on it, never opened before, had similar scoring on the oil pump gears. OEM
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Old 10-21-2015, 03:56 PM   #1738
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How do you explain the side wear on his pump? What would cause that other than the clearance being too tight?
Duh-bree.

Duh-bree in da oyl.
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Old 10-21-2015, 03:59 PM   #1739
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I now attach a shop vac to my turbo oil feed line, then turn on the vacuum until I have built oil pressure and see oil coming into the shop vac. I will post a picture of the contraption I made.
Atomizing hydrocarbons and spraying them through a spark-generating motor doesn't sounds like a great idea to me.

--Ian
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Old 10-21-2015, 04:25 PM   #1740
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Duh-bree.

Duh-bree in da oyl.
Ok, that's fine. Where did the debris come from?

If it chewed up the side of the pump where there's no oil flow, how about the gears themselves that sees 99.5% of all the oil flow through the pump? Are those chewed up too?
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