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Old 01-17-2014, 02:33 PM   #1221
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Old 01-17-2014, 03:02 PM   #1222
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[QUOTE=Braineack;

interesting watch.[/QUOTE]

Of course the fed law trumps the state on the issue.
Didn't occur to them dummies that maybe they could have required him to prove he was US citizen then.
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Old 01-17-2014, 03:22 PM   #1223
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or they could have just given him the legally requested document instead of being shady crybaby mother *******? they wanted his info so they could retaliate against him, they had no legal reason to ask who he was of it he was a citizen or not.

notice the one old lady who pops back in to give him her badge number because she violated a law by not giving it while wasting time recording someone legally recording her in a public place on her personal phone?
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Old 01-17-2014, 03:26 PM   #1224
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What is the point of flipping someone off but to **** them off?
So the cop loses points for cooperating and getting pissed off.
why not? people do it to me driving all the time.

actually, i honked at a cop the other day who put on his blues to run a red light. I could tell he wanted to so I waited and watched, and when he went through I layed on my horns the entire time. I'm a hero.

the supreme court has ruled that flipping off a cop is constitutional, so that stop was illegal btw.

Quote:
Richard Insogna, the officer who stopped Swartz and his wife when they arrived at their destination, claimed he pulled the couple over because he believed Swartz was "trying to get my attention for some reason." The appeals court didn't buy that explanation, ruling that the "nearly universal recognition that this gesture is an insult deprives such an interpretation of reasonableness."

...

"[Neither party] makes any claim on appeal that the gesture was disorderly conduct. Indeed such a gesture alone cannot establish probable cause to believe a disorderly conduct violation has occurred." page 11 of the opinion
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/0...n_2403563.html


what does the cop in the video say? "you were trying to get my attention"

someone needs to read up on his case law.

he also had absolutely no reason to conduct a stop on the driver whatsoever. he was just pissed his manliness was just tested and flexed his muscles breaking the laws he was sworn to uphold.
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Old 01-17-2014, 03:41 PM   #1225
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Originally Posted by Braineack View Post
or they could have just given him the legally requested document instead of being shady crybaby mother *******? they wanted his info so they could retaliate against him, they had no legal reason to ask who he was of it he was a citizen or not.

notice the one old lady who pops back in to give him her badge number because she violated a law by not giving it while wasting time recording someone legally recording her in a public place on her personal phone?
Yuh - But they can't just meekly give in to an uppity citizen just because the law is on his side. Maybe his advice to the cops was not so good....
I don't think that the lawyers oath was relevant in the circumstance. They cop making decision with the papers oath would count.

It was before FOA that I wanted records in my state (CA) and the county wanted some price per page. I don't remember the price or if it was reasonable or what. - Seems like it might have been comparable to Xerox at local stationary shop. ??

I did not indicate that I was 100% on this guys side.
Were I somehow in the cops position I might have wanted to play the game to ridiculous end. - But that is me - and one of the reasons I would not last long in such a job if I were to ever been in such position. - I used to like to play "Letter of the law" with my sgt's in the Army.
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Old 01-17-2014, 04:07 PM   #1226
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Originally Posted by Braineack View Post
why not? people do it to me driving all the time.

actually, i honked at a cop the other day who put on his blues to run a red light. I could tell he wanted to so I waited and watched, and when he went through I layed on my horns the entire time. I'm a hero.

the supreme court has ruled that flipping off a cop is constitutional, so that stop was illegal btw.



Flipping Off Police Officers Constitutional, Federal Court Affirms


what does the cop in the video say? "you were trying to get my attention"

someone needs to read up on his case law.

he also had absolutely no reason to conduct a stop on the driver whatsoever. he was just pissed his manliness was just tested and flexed his muscles breaking the laws he was sworn to uphold.
I mostly concur.
I am not so sure that the cop broke the law though.
They fellow made a gesture and the cop may have been within right pull over to ask WTF.
I am not an absolutist - not on law and a lot of things.
Cop catches teens drinking beer or smoking pot on the canal bank and make them dump their stuff and give lecture and lets them go is not upholding the law. He is doing the civil thing though.
I would much more oppose illegal impositions then illegal relaxations and suppose there to be gray areas between what is civil and what is abuse.

There is some cop baiting that I have thought pretty cool and some that was just ******** who accomplish counterproductive fodder for use by the cop apologists to point at to make excuse for the bad cops.
I sure don't know that the world is going to be better place for sake of some boneheads displaying their hostility checks at random cops.

And the giggling kid is just a coward that discovered a toy he can abuse. I wonder if he would do such crap without his mommie to witness and protect.

But yuh - Supremes said the flipping is not unlawful. I suppose that means someone cannot be arrested and charges pressed.
I don't know that they said that a cop cannot pull someone over to study for blatantly suspicious behavior though.

Coincidence I just ran onto this:
Is still about arrest and not about pulling over to ask WTF.

Of course in the original posts video the cop did ask for papers and get the fellow out of the car ..??

Last edited by Craig66; 01-17-2014 at 04:20 PM. Reason: add a link
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Old 01-17-2014, 04:12 PM   #1227
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the court case said, and ill pharphrase: that the middle finger is a universally known symbol of "**** you" and that's protected and legal and unless it was accompanied by a statement like "ill kill you" it's not threatening or disordrly and therefore it's not cause.

it's not the first time the supreme court has ruled in that same manner.


and ill quote:

Quote:
"Indeed, such a gesture alone cannot establish probable cause to believe a disorderly conduct violation has occurred.

'The disorderly conduct statute at issue here does not circumscribe pure speech directed at an individual. Rather, it is directed at words and utterances coupled with an intent to create a risk of public disorder . . . .' People v. Tichenor, 89 N.Y.2d 769, 775 (1997)"
Quote:
Perhaps there is a police officer somewhere who would interpret an automobile passenger’s giving him the finger as a signal of distress, creating a suspicion that something occurring in the automobile warranted investigation. And perhaps that interpretation is what prompted Insogna to act, as he claims. But the nearly universal recognition that this gesture is an insult deprives such an interpretation of reasonableness. This ancient gesture of insult is not the basis for a reasonable suspicion of a traffic violation or impending criminal activity. Surely no passenger planning some wrongful conduct toward another occupant of an automobile would call attention to himself by giving the finger to a police officer. And if there might be an automobile passenger somewhere who will give the inger to a police officer as an ill-advised signal for help, it is far more consistent with all citizens’ protection against improper police apprehension to leave that highly unlikely signal without a response than to lend judicial approval to the stopping of every vehicle from which a passenger makes that gesture.
http://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/pkg/USCOURT...11-02846-0.pdf
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Old 01-17-2014, 04:39 PM   #1228
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Originally Posted by Braineack View Post
the court case said, and ill pharphrase: that the middle finger is a universally known symbol of "**** you" and that's protected and legal and unless it was accompanied by a statement like "ill kill you" it's not threatening or disordrly and therefore it's not cause.

it's not the first time the supreme court has ruled in that same manner.


and ill quote:





http://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/pkg/USCOURT...11-02846-0.pdf
I just speculate about the finer points of legality of pulling someone over.
I am not sure about whether cop can stop anyone to ask questions based on a notion. I don't think he can require someone to answer questions or to do stuff.
I been stopped for taillight out. Cop left and I got bulb from glove box to fix it and there was not any bulb not working. Got stopped for headlight out and when I got it out of impound I suppose the impound folks must have repaired it for me.

Oh well, I have figured myself to been ahead point-wise. I did my job playing the criminal and they cheated. They made oaths and violated them to nail me at stuff I didn't do.

Anyway - the kid is a punk and the cop has a temper that makes him not such a good cop. Maybe if his boss were a good cop he might give this cop a talking to and (doubtful) he'd be better for it.
My local cops have always been pretty cool but I would bet that the best of them have had opportunity to lie under oath.
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Old 01-17-2014, 04:48 PM   #1229
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The issue with cops that I have is that they have a very significant percentage of corruption, and when you swear an oath of uphold the law and you work with corrupt, violent thugs, and do nothing...

Well it just says to me that 'good cops' dont exist.

People often say that this is like calling all car enthusiasts hoons, but I never swore any oath to stop hoons hooning. But cops all swore their oath to stop what their fellow officers do day in day out, and yet it continues.

Dann
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Old 01-17-2014, 05:09 PM   #1230
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Braineack;

[url
http://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/pkg/USCOURTS-ca2-11-02846/pdf/USCOURTS-ca2-11-02846-0.pdf[/url]
Darn you!
I read that and liked it.
It is Second Circuit:

District of Connecticut
Eastern District of New York
Northern District of New York
Southern District of New York
Western District of New York
District of Vermont

Now I need search to see if I can flip off cops in California.
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Old 01-17-2014, 05:21 PM   #1231
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The issue with cops that I have is that they have a very significant percentage of corruption, and when you swear an oath of uphold the law and you work with corrupt, violent thugs, and do nothing...

Well it just says to me that 'good cops' dont exist.

People often say that this is like calling all car enthusiasts hoons, but I never swore any oath to stop hoons hooning. But cops all swore their oath to stop what their fellow officers do day in day out, and yet it continues.

Dann
I sure seen a lot of that 'non existent' blue line.
I have seen what I thought might be more decent cop than most to appear uneasy and embarrassed at what he was involved with his buddies in doing. But he went along.
Righteous cop would likely need give up his career to do the righteous thing though.
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Old 01-17-2014, 05:52 PM   #1232
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People often say that this is like calling all car enthusiasts hoons, but I never swore any oath to stop hoons hooning. But cops all swore their oath to stop what their fellow officers do day in day out, and yet it continues.

Dann
Yes, they swear an oath, but their actual job is go out and write tickets and make money for the state/county/whatever.

They don't actually want to stop or prevent crime. Stopping crime would mean they are out of funding/work.

Busting people for petty crimes and issue fines for no particular reason is easier than solving crimes, protecting private property, and other real police work.

I know someone that became a police officer so he could try to make it to FBI or something, now all he does is tell stories about how he likes to ruin peoples lives for jollies. If you get busted for driving someone else's car without a license, hell get them to call you to the scene to pick up the car so it doesn't get towed, but actually ticket you for letting someone drive it without a license (a crime here in VA) and tow it anyways. that's his favorite way to serve and protect.
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Old 01-17-2014, 07:23 PM   #1233
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I agree with everything above.

Regarding quitting being a cop to do the right thing, go look up the local drop out rates if you can. In australia is something near 50% leave on their own terms within a year, and then the long term suicide rate is higher than almost any other profession.

Dann
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Old 01-17-2014, 07:48 PM   #1234
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Yes, they swear an oath, but their actual job is go out and write tickets and make money for the state/county/whatever.

They don't actually want to stop or prevent crime. Stopping crime would mean they are out of funding/work.

Busting people for petty crimes and issue fines for no particular reason is easier than solving crimes, protecting private property, and other real police work.

I know someone that became a police officer so he could try to make it to FBI or something, now all he does is tell stories about how he likes to ruin peoples lives for jollies. If you get busted for driving someone else's car without a license, hell get them to call you to the scene to pick up the car so it doesn't get towed, but actually ticket you for letting someone drive it without a license (a crime here in VA) and tow it anyways. that's his favorite way to serve and protect.


EXACTLY!

I know quite a few officers, and have heard plenty of shitty stories. What bothers me most is a lot of them really do think they are being heroic and doing good by stopping people and harassing them for petty reasons. Probably a lot like how many otherwise normal German people thought they were doing good work by killing millions of Jews in WWII. I can't think of the word for that psychological condition at the moment, but you can see what I'm getting at.

There was actually a time I considered hiring on with Birmingham PD when a friend started working there. Sure, it pays decently, and you collect a pension after 20 or so years. Looking back at how I almost made that decision sickens me. Though I know it wouldn't have lasted long. I would have jumped ship before long after witnessing what goes on on a daily basis. Either that or I would have been killed or put in jail when I tried to do the right thing and defend a citizens rights by going against a fellow office who was in the wrong. Or perhaps I would try to go public with some corruption and be framed for something and sent away to prison. You know it has to happen on occasion.
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Old 01-17-2014, 08:45 PM   #1235
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I've known a lot of folks to berate at me or to argue in general such as "you cannot cure all the worlds ills". So would follow that with something that comes to not even try at all and as if there be no other option but to go over to that "dark side".

Ex buddy of mine rationalized/justified stealing from someone he did not know, "They would do it to us!"
Funny thing was that I was fascinated watching him packing my ice chest with some stuff I later identified as 'beggars tick'. It has leaves that kinda/sorta has a resemblance to cannabis. - Later in the day I found some in flower. It had what resembled little sunflowers. He ripped that up too and put it with what he thought he'd stolen from someones grow. - Later I found that he dried and sold it for twenty bucks an ounce.
But I digressed. My point was about the way some nutcases can rationalize and especially the "They would do it to us."

I knew a cop and he attended the local Junior College for awhile. Sitting among his cop buddies he bragged that if he saw a mugging on one side of the street and a pot sale going down on the other that he would bust the dope because it is easier. I got impression that he may have been as much as anyone about doing his job and taking the easiest way to get along.
I don't suppose that he was any different than a lot of other folks who would just mark me as some idealistic sucker for notions about honor, honesty and fair dealing.

LOL - even in my lawbreaking there would be peers look at me funny when I would state that, "I may be a criminal but I'm honest."
I suppose that some similar things work on the psyche of some lawbreakers that they think because the deal some drugs they may as well be dishonest or deal with stoeln stuff as well. Maybe there are cops that start with some high ideals then become disillusioned and turn to some of the most corrupt.
I dunno. I guess when the rabid dog is at your ankles is not best time to sympathize and wonder how the poor thing got the disease. When one is in position of relative safety one might indulge compassionate notions but whether it be with compassion or malice it is still same solution to shoot the dog for ones safety or the safety of others or to end misery of the horrible lingering death from incurable disease.


disclaimer: I am not advocating the shooting of anything. It is just bad metaphor.
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Old 01-17-2014, 08:46 PM   #1236
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another thing this guy told me. basically the only way their superior knows they are doing their job is by a log of tickets they write or arrests they make, so if he goes out each day and just lets everyone off with a warning, hell get fired for not policing because he record of arrests/tickets/names written down is below par. his day consists of sitting in the same parking spot each day and running plates and pulling people over when they come back as a hit (warrant, no license, lack of reg). He doesn't do **** to solve crime.

it's a lose/lose situation and it's completely changed him.

he did happen to arrest a convicted murderer that ran from him in a stolen truck with a stolen motorcycle in the back; ill give him credit for that.
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Old 01-17-2014, 08:57 PM   #1237
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Professors Detail Brutal Tangle With Policehttp://www.nytimes.com/2014/01/17/ny...dayspaper&_r=1

Read another awhile back about someone called for ambulance and cops come and things went horrible wrong.

Maybe people will learn to not call cops to help with mentally disturbed child unless the help they need be to shoot the kid.
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Old 01-18-2014, 12:46 PM   #1238
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What bothers me most is a lot of them really do think they are being heroic and doing good by stopping people and harassing them for petty reasons. Probably a lot like how many otherwise normal German people thought they were doing good work by killing millions of Jews in WWII. I can't think of the word for that psychological condition at the moment, but you can see what I'm getting at.
Blind obedience to authority. One of humans' greatest failings. Evolutionary psychologists think humans evolved this way because of our tribal origins. If a leader rose up the tribe more likely survived if everyone else followed him. Unfortunately with the modern nation-state it more easily allows psychopathic politicians to rise to power.

Milgram experiment - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

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The Milgram experiment on obedience to authority figures was a series of social psychology experiments conducted by Yale University psychologist Stanley Milgram. They measured the willingness of study participants to obey an authority figure who instructed them to perform acts conflicting with their personal conscience.
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Old 01-18-2014, 12:55 PM   #1239
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Yes, they swear an oath, but their actual job is go out and write tickets and make money for the state/county/whatever.

They don't actually want to stop or prevent crime. Stopping crime would mean they are out of funding/work.

Busting people for petty crimes and issue fines for no particular reason is easier than solving crimes, protecting private property, and other real police work.
A neighborhood in Texas quit paying a larger neighboring town for police services, and hired a private security agency. Because they don't sit around stopping speeders, they cost the city a lot less. And *real* crime has been cut in half:

Neighborhood Fires Sheriff Dept and Goes Private Security Cutting Crime in Half The Free Patriot



In Detroit, private security agencies now take the place of police whose budgets have shrunk. These agencies don't shoot dogs and bust down doors because that would **** off their customers:
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Old 01-18-2014, 01:59 PM   #1240
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Originally Posted by JasonC SBB View Post
A neighborhood in Texas quit paying a larger neighboring town for police services, and hired a private security agency. Because they don't sit around stopping speeders, they cost the city a lot less. And *real* crime has been cut in half:

Neighborhood Fires Sheriff Dept and Goes Private Security Cutting Crime in Half The Free Patriot



In Detroit, private security agencies now take the place of police whose budgets have shrunk. These agencies don't shoot dogs and bust down doors because that would **** off their customers:
YES!
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