Jan Brewer, immigration laws
05-06-2010, 03:34 PM
#161
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EXACTLY
It's all about accountability.
If you're here legally, you are accountable to pay taxes, appear in court, abide by the rest of our laws, be financially responsible, and hopefully a productive part of our society.
You are also afforded the comfort of full rights, and unlimited opportunities.
Truth of the matter is most of the illegals don't care to be held accountable. They like things just the way they are regardless of what Katie dumbbitch Couric tells you.
It's all about accountability.
If you're here legally, you are accountable to pay taxes, appear in court, abide by the rest of our laws, be financially responsible, and hopefully a productive part of our society.
You are also afforded the comfort of full rights, and unlimited opportunities.
Truth of the matter is most of the illegals don't care to be held accountable. They like things just the way they are regardless of what Katie dumbbitch Couric tells you.
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05-06-2010, 03:40 PM
#162
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According to interviews with the SHerrif over in Pima county they hand over illegals to border patrol unless some serious crime has been commited, in which case they probably end up as part of that incarceratin stat.
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05-06-2010, 03:44 PM
#164
I spent years working next to these guys, and most of them come over with no intent to stay. The magic number is $20K. That's how much it takes to either build your own (nice) home in Mexico, or to start your own business. The guys that want to do both save up $40K, but most don't last that long, and know that if they do the business first they can build the house later.
Some of them get lost along the way. Money is easy here, and they can afford to drink more than they used to, and experiment with drugs. The Conroe, TX apartment complex where I'd pick up our regulars was fully populated by males, usually five to a dwelling, and half of them would still have nosebleeds from the coke as they stood out there dazed in the morning waiting for some manual labor. I worked my *** off, and never got paid more than those guys, that was the market. Taxes came out of my check, I had to keep a license and insurance, and drive myself to work.
These guys CHOOSE this life, paying 1/5th of a rent to send as much money home as possible, not seeing their families for years.
Again, the solution is comprehensive. It's not just a strong border, or enforcement of the law, or some kind of amnesty or other immigration reform...it's all of that.
Enforce the laws we have now.
Secure the border.
Revise our immigration policy, and increase the efficiency of the naturalization and migrant worker processes.
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05-06-2010, 03:50 PM
#166
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Seriously, if you had the opportunity to go somewhere that paid 10times better, even if you could only get crappy jobs, and you got to enjoy nicer scenery, a better way of life, and would at least be taken care of on the most basic level without having to play by all the rules what would you do?
I spent years working next to these guys, and most of them come over with no intent to stay. The magic number is $20K. That's how much it takes to either build your own (nice) home in Mexico, or to start your own business. The guys that want to do both save up $40K, but most don't last that long, and know that if they do the business first they can build the house later.
Some of them get lost along the way. Money is easy here, and they can afford to drink more than they used to, and experiment with drugs. The Conroe, TX apartment complex where I'd pick up our regulars was fully populated by males, usually five to a dwelling, and half of them would still have nosebleeds from the coke as they stood out there dazed in the morning waiting for some manual labor. I worked my *** off, and never got paid more than those guys, that was the market. Taxes came out of my check, I had to keep a license and insurance, and drive myself to work.
These guys CHOOSE this life, paying 1/5th of a rent to send as much money home as possible, not seeing their families for years.
Again, the solution is comprehensive. It's not just a strong border, or enforcement of the law, or some kind of amnesty or other immigration reform...it's all of that.
Enforce the laws we have now.
Secure the border.
Revise our immigration policy, and increase the efficiency of the naturalization and migrant worker processes.
I spent years working next to these guys, and most of them come over with no intent to stay. The magic number is $20K. That's how much it takes to either build your own (nice) home in Mexico, or to start your own business. The guys that want to do both save up $40K, but most don't last that long, and know that if they do the business first they can build the house later.
Some of them get lost along the way. Money is easy here, and they can afford to drink more than they used to, and experiment with drugs. The Conroe, TX apartment complex where I'd pick up our regulars was fully populated by males, usually five to a dwelling, and half of them would still have nosebleeds from the coke as they stood out there dazed in the morning waiting for some manual labor. I worked my *** off, and never got paid more than those guys, that was the market. Taxes came out of my check, I had to keep a license and insurance, and drive myself to work.
These guys CHOOSE this life, paying 1/5th of a rent to send as much money home as possible, not seeing their families for years.
Again, the solution is comprehensive. It's not just a strong border, or enforcement of the law, or some kind of amnesty or other immigration reform...it's all of that.
Enforce the laws we have now.
Secure the border.
Revise our immigration policy, and increase the efficiency of the naturalization and migrant worker processes.
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05-06-2010, 07:15 PM
#167
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Guess what? No, you cant compete with someone who will do the same job for less than you need to get by. How wonderful for the illegal that he gets to do hard work for half what some other guy makes. Way to stand up for him. And how wonderful for the guy who has commited the unforgivable sin of living in this country with his family and needing to pay that mortgage and all.
Maybe if we had an actual system in place, a fair market would exist. But we dont, which means that employers get to basically screw over the illegals who have to take what they can get. In other words, your wonderful 'free market' is one where you dont have a balance between supply and demand. Way too much supply, meaning the commodity (a human ******* being in this case) is either devalued or gone.
Maybe if we had an actual system in place, a fair market would exist. But we dont, which means that employers get to basically screw over the illegals who have to take what they can get. In other words, your wonderful 'free market' is one where you dont have a balance between supply and demand. Way too much supply, meaning the commodity (a human ******* being in this case) is either devalued or gone.
And frankly your arrogance regarding some of these jobs smacks of another East coaster who thinks he is middle class when in fact he's a rich more than someone from TX. Picking apples is not a 10 dollar an hour job. Operating heavy equipment, doing decent cement work, plumbing, electrical, paint, machine work, carpentry? Takes skill, and its hard work. Believe it or not, a lot of these supposedly unskilled, dumb illegals are pretty smart and skilled. As opposed to Mr. Manuel Labor that most people seem to picture.
...except when they are paid in cash....except when a ton of the cash is sent back over the border rather than spent here....except when they dont own property at all...and I am sure companies paying people depressed wages under the table rather than decent wages to people who do actualy pay taxes and spend the cash localy is a huge economic boost....for Western Union anyway.
Regarding the Property Taxes, I forgot about Gov. housing and military housing (but I'm sure Those immigrants aren't the issue) they don't truly pay Property Taxes. Everyone else does; just like a Corporate Income Tax the Consumer will pay either a portion or the entire amount depending on the elasticities of the local housing market.
Go take a look at medical facilities in any of the border states. "putting one over?" Nope, but costing piles of cash? Yeah. Sorry that the truth does not workj for you, but lame generalizations dont make it all better. By the way, no medial professional I have ever known would refuse care, and nobody is putting anything forward I have seen to that effect. Which is sort of the point. Medical care is being delivered and it does cost money. Maybe if immigrants were not getting dragged over in the backs of non-ventilated U-Hauls by drug feinds with guns they would not need ER care as much. Might be nice for them. I dont particularly like my fate being in the hands of doped out half-assed slave traders personally.
Sure, but how is that an argument against legalization? That is the problem under the Current System. Your example above is Exactly why it's not working. A certain % of the population will always have substance abuse problems but when you change the culture and enact rational policies that are proven to decrease substance abuse then you get results.
The organized crime problem and the waste of Tax Dollars that is the War on Drugs are worse things than a person making the decision to screw up their life.
Incidentaly, a lot of the violence just might stem from the fact that you have desperate people with little to no cash in an unfamiliar land with a fair amount of hostile people around. Allowing businesses to pay the absolute market minimum is probably not going to help that.
So the model you would 'like to see' is one where people are exploited as labor with pretty much 0 protection against abuse. That really jives well with your picture there. And in terms of pure economics, I dont think having a huge portion of the population grow old without proper medical care or retirement benefits is a good idea. What do we do then? Invade Canada?
You do condone it, and you just explained why. No **** we are a nation of immigrants. Maybe this time around we can also improve on histroy and not exploiting said people quite so much. The only thing in here I agree with a sensible legal immigration policy. One that does not allow for the lowest possible wages would be a nice start.
We need an sensible immigration policy that takes into account the cost/benefits of enforcing said immigration policies and their effects on our economy.
Putting up massive walls, deploying soldiers, and having Local Law Enforcement Officers making immigration a priority is a complete waste of money and resources. It ain't helping the deficit.
I don't advocate a completely open border like the EU has, but we need something akin to it. We need something that recognizes the fact that what's best for Both economies is a free flow of goods, capital & labor.
Instead of saying I don't condone illegally enter the country I'll say that Sovereign Countries have a right to make just laws that include immigration control.
"an unjust law is no law at all"
Chris
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05-06-2010, 07:26 PM
#168
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I think the border would be a great place for the Army (or Marines/Navy/AF)to train and occupy time when not in war. Can you say live fire exercise? After the triple 7s start falling I guarantee no one crosses. Can't count the times those things saved my life.. literally.
Also, talk about a discouragement for recruitment. I don't know how the soldiers at Ft. Bliss handle it.
With a minimum wage increase and mandated, taxed healthcare...well, the labor market doesn't want to pay that. When I worked for the same federal agency I work for now I made $9.75 per hour. While I was in Santa Fe I made this amount and its remarkable to consider that minimum wage was $9.92 per hour...with a mandated health benefits package. Do you think that's reasonable for a skilled, educated employee managing several million dollars to make the same wage as the person cleaning the hotel room? If that wage were not mandated, I'd praise the company and the employee...but its not.
Its easy to say Americans don't want jobs that illegals pay, but when you consider the market demand, mandated wage rates, and a brutal recession it makes sense to say "Americans don't want the jobs illegals assume" because the market can't support the mandated minimum wage.
As for illegals recieving the bare minimum...they recieve the bare minimum through the "indigent" classification wich is most likely obtained through a lack of documented income and the care is a charity afforded by the free-market health-care system.
Naturalize illegal aliens, let them pay taxes, and I will applaud every one that "takes a job" from the American trash which lives off extended welfare benefits. $12,000,000,000.00 deficit means its time to get real rather than bankroll Mexico's poor.
Its easy to say Americans don't want jobs that illegals pay, but when you consider the market demand, mandated wage rates, and a brutal recession it makes sense to say "Americans don't want the jobs illegals assume" because the market can't support the mandated minimum wage.
As for illegals recieving the bare minimum...they recieve the bare minimum through the "indigent" classification wich is most likely obtained through a lack of documented income and the care is a charity afforded by the free-market health-care system.
Naturalize illegal aliens, let them pay taxes, and I will applaud every one that "takes a job" from the American trash which lives off extended welfare benefits. $12,000,000,000.00 deficit means its time to get real rather than bankroll Mexico's poor.
Chris
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05-06-2010, 08:58 PM
#169
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There should be a fair system in place that more easily recognizes the need for migrant workers so that they don't have to compete on the black market. I'm not anti-union or anti-minimum wage. There's obviously a need for a minimum wage and supplemental income for the unemployed (masses of unemployed plus nothing to fall back on is a bad recipe for stability; **** the worries about them mooching off the government, revolution is the bigger threat).
Sure, but how is that an argument against legalization? That is the problem under the Current System. Your example above is Exactly why it's not working. A certain % of the population will always have substance abuse problems but when you change the culture and enact rational policies that are proven to decrease substance abuse then you get results.
The organized crime problem and the waste of Tax Dollars that is the War on Drugs are worse things than a person making the decision to screw up their life.
Go read up on Prohibition and get back to me.
Edit:
What I think we disagree on here more than anything else is the role of border enforcement. Having a proper system in place is essential, we do agree there. But lets say we do have a really effective work-visa thing going. Now the local coke-head who works for (insert cartel of your choice here) cannot get a visa because he's a known violent criminal. If there is no real border enforcement, he just comes over anyway and the wonderful new system we just made has failed in one very important regard: Security.
In other words, you need both. And for now, while we work on the policy/system side of that equation, you need to have strong security. Which is doable. This is not the Mekong delta in 1968. It's the desert southwest. We are close to our supply lines, we know the ground, we have the resources, the terrain is for the most part given to detection. You can maintain border security. We are not dealing with ideological opposites funded by a super-power who have been fighting the round-eye for generations. We are dealing with people who want to make a buck. That can be reasoned with and who will often act fairly rationaly.
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05-13-2010, 12:42 AM
#170
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Listen up bitches...
------------------
A Mexican, an Arab,
and a Arizona girl are
in the same bar.
When the Mexican
finishes his beer,
he throws his glass
in the air, pulls out
his pistol, and shoots
the glass to pieces.
He says, 'In Mexico ,
our glasses are so
cheap we don't need
to drink with the same one twice.'
The Arab, obviously
impressed by this,
drinks non-alcohol beer
(cuz he's a muslim!),
throws it into the
air, pulls out his
AK-47, and shoots
the glass to pieces.
He says, 'In the
Arab World, we have
so much sand to make
glasses that we don't
need to drink with
the same one twice either.'
The Arizona girl,
cool as a cucumber,
picks up her beer,
downs it in one gulp,
throws the glass into
the air, whips out her
45, and shoots the
Mexican and the Arab.
Catching her glass,
setting it on the bar, and calling for a refill,
she says,
'In Arizona ,
we have so many
illegal aliens that
we don't have to
drink with the same ones twice.'
Yes, it's like that on purpose, deal with it. Yes, it's also predictable.
Discuss?
Saw the thread had been dead for a while, figured it needed a new log in the fire.
------------------
A Mexican, an Arab,
and a Arizona girl are
in the same bar.
When the Mexican
finishes his beer,
he throws his glass
in the air, pulls out
his pistol, and shoots
the glass to pieces.
He says, 'In Mexico ,
our glasses are so
cheap we don't need
to drink with the same one twice.'
The Arab, obviously
impressed by this,
drinks non-alcohol beer
(cuz he's a muslim!),
throws it into the
air, pulls out his
AK-47, and shoots
the glass to pieces.
He says, 'In the
Arab World, we have
so much sand to make
glasses that we don't
need to drink with
the same one twice either.'
The Arizona girl,
cool as a cucumber,
picks up her beer,
downs it in one gulp,
throws the glass into
the air, whips out her
45, and shoots the
Mexican and the Arab.
Catching her glass,
setting it on the bar, and calling for a refill,
she says,
'In Arizona ,
we have so many
illegal aliens that
we don't have to
drink with the same ones twice.'
Yes, it's like that on purpose, deal with it. Yes, it's also predictable.
Discuss?
Saw the thread had been dead for a while, figured it needed a new log in the fire.
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05-13-2010, 09:13 AM
#175
Except the *****, because well, it's gone...
Killing the two immigrants wasn't just immoral, but a hate crime since it was obviously based on racial profiling, and not any actual check of legality. My guess is they weren't illegal since they probably got carded at the bar. (yes, I'm starting to take this seriously, because it's quickly going from a real debate on immigration reform to open, ethnocentric-fed hatred).
And immigrants are being "held down" by our immigration policy. It's an incredibly cumbersome process, and we do have caps on immigration that weren't there when our great grandfathers came over.
You can only seperate the wheat from the chaff with an effective filter, ie, an open, efficient immigration department that gives those that wish to come here real options.
Do you realize the average illegal spent $2000 to get here. Imagine if we charged just half that for processing (background checks, physicals etc). They'd be more than happy to take the legal route.
This debate is also being clouded with other issues, including drug trafficking. Once there is a front door policy for immigration, it will be much easier to tackle the illegal criminal activity, and illegal immigrant criminals in our cities as well.
Killing the two immigrants wasn't just immoral, but a hate crime since it was obviously based on racial profiling, and not any actual check of legality. My guess is they weren't illegal since they probably got carded at the bar. (yes, I'm starting to take this seriously, because it's quickly going from a real debate on immigration reform to open, ethnocentric-fed hatred).
And immigrants are being "held down" by our immigration policy. It's an incredibly cumbersome process, and we do have caps on immigration that weren't there when our great grandfathers came over.
You can only seperate the wheat from the chaff with an effective filter, ie, an open, efficient immigration department that gives those that wish to come here real options.
Do you realize the average illegal spent $2000 to get here. Imagine if we charged just half that for processing (background checks, physicals etc). They'd be more than happy to take the legal route.
This debate is also being clouded with other issues, including drug trafficking. Once there is a front door policy for immigration, it will be much easier to tackle the illegal criminal activity, and illegal immigrant criminals in our cities as well.
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05-13-2010, 01:48 PM
#177
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Thats where the enforcement side of the equation comes in. Then it really is easier and more sensible and safer and economically beneficial to do it legally. 1000 legal vs 200 illegal is a no-brainer, especially if coming over illegally means that you may end up with longer delays due to being deported etc.
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05-13-2010, 01:51 PM
#178
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Thats where the enforcement side of the equation comes in. Then it really is easier and more sensible and safer and economically beneficial to do it legally. 1000 legal vs 200 illegal is a no-brainer, especially if coming over illegally means that you may end up with longer delays due to being deported etc.
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05-13-2010, 02:36 PM
#180
How about we find a way to screen immigrants and allow them to be productive parts of society. Specifically to keep them off entitlement programs, and at least paying in some for those that are.
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