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Old 05-06-2010, 04:34 PM   #161
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EXACTLY

It's all about accountability.

If you're here legally, you are accountable to pay taxes, appear in court, abide by the rest of our laws, be financially responsible, and hopefully a productive part of our society.

You are also afforded the comfort of full rights, and unlimited opportunities.

Truth of the matter is most of the illegals don't care to be held accountable. They like things just the way they are regardless of what Katie dumbbitch Couric tells you.
Yep. I bet well over half of people here illegally want to stay that way. The news makes it seem like all of them are just heart broken that they aren't legal, and want to be. That's more responsibility/accountability for them to worry about.
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Old 05-06-2010, 04:40 PM   #162
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According to interviews with the SHerrif over in Pima county they hand over illegals to border patrol unless some serious crime has been commited, in which case they probably end up as part of that incarceratin stat.
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Old 05-06-2010, 04:41 PM   #163
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i dunno. but the statistics are racist.
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Old 05-06-2010, 04:44 PM   #164
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Yep. I bet well over half of people here illegally want to stay that way. The news makes it seem like all of them are just heart broken that they aren't legal, and want to be. That's more responsibility/accountability for them to worry about.
Seriously, if you had the opportunity to go somewhere that paid 10times better, even if you could only get crappy jobs, and you got to enjoy nicer scenery, a better way of life, and would at least be taken care of on the most basic level without having to play by all the rules what would you do?

I spent years working next to these guys, and most of them come over with no intent to stay. The magic number is $20K. That's how much it takes to either build your own (nice) home in Mexico, or to start your own business. The guys that want to do both save up $40K, but most don't last that long, and know that if they do the business first they can build the house later.

Some of them get lost along the way. Money is easy here, and they can afford to drink more than they used to, and experiment with drugs. The Conroe, TX apartment complex where I'd pick up our regulars was fully populated by males, usually five to a dwelling, and half of them would still have nosebleeds from the coke as they stood out there dazed in the morning waiting for some manual labor. I worked my *** off, and never got paid more than those guys, that was the market. Taxes came out of my check, I had to keep a license and insurance, and drive myself to work.

These guys CHOOSE this life, paying 1/5th of a rent to send as much money home as possible, not seeing their families for years.


Again, the solution is comprehensive. It's not just a strong border, or enforcement of the law, or some kind of amnesty or other immigration reform...it's all of that.

Enforce the laws we have now.

Secure the border.

Revise our immigration policy, and increase the efficiency of the naturalization and migrant worker processes.
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Old 05-06-2010, 04:45 PM   #165
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And since we are talking about congress...

revise the policy in such a way that it disincentives americans in some way.
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Old 05-06-2010, 04:50 PM   #166
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Seriously, if you had the opportunity to go somewhere that paid 10times better, even if you could only get crappy jobs, and you got to enjoy nicer scenery, a better way of life, and would at least be taken care of on the most basic level without having to play by all the rules what would you do?

I spent years working next to these guys, and most of them come over with no intent to stay. The magic number is $20K. That's how much it takes to either build your own (nice) home in Mexico, or to start your own business. The guys that want to do both save up $40K, but most don't last that long, and know that if they do the business first they can build the house later.

Some of them get lost along the way. Money is easy here, and they can afford to drink more than they used to, and experiment with drugs. The Conroe, TX apartment complex where I'd pick up our regulars was fully populated by males, usually five to a dwelling, and half of them would still have nosebleeds from the coke as they stood out there dazed in the morning waiting for some manual labor. I worked my *** off, and never got paid more than those guys, that was the market. Taxes came out of my check, I had to keep a license and insurance, and drive myself to work.

These guys CHOOSE this life, paying 1/5th of a rent to send as much money home as possible, not seeing their families for years.


Again, the solution is comprehensive. It's not just a strong border, or enforcement of the law, or some kind of amnesty or other immigration reform...it's all of that.

Enforce the laws we have now.

Secure the border.

Revise our immigration policy, and increase the efficiency of the naturalization and migrant worker processes.
Exactly my feelings. I'm not skilled in putting my thoughts into text. But immigrant activists or whatever you want to call them, don't want to hear that. They are all being held down by our government. They are humans too!!! Evil American just won't let them have a better life...
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Old 05-06-2010, 08:15 PM   #167
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Guess what? No, you cant compete with someone who will do the same job for less than you need to get by. How wonderful for the illegal that he gets to do hard work for half what some other guy makes. Way to stand up for him. And how wonderful for the guy who has commited the unforgivable sin of living in this country with his family and needing to pay that mortgage and all.

Maybe if we had an actual system in place, a fair market would exist. But we dont, which means that employers get to basically screw over the illegals who have to take what they can get. In other words, your wonderful 'free market' is one where you dont have a balance between supply and demand. Way too much supply, meaning the commodity (a human ******* being in this case) is either devalued or gone.
You misunderstood my point. There should be a fair system in place that more easily recognizes the need for migrant workers so that they don't have to compete on the black market. I'm not anti-union or anti-minimum wage. There's obviously a need for a minimum wage and supplemental income for the unemployed (masses of unemployed plus nothing to fall back on is a bad recipe for stability; **** the worries about them mooching off the government, revolution is the bigger threat).

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And frankly your arrogance regarding some of these jobs smacks of another East coaster who thinks he is middle class when in fact he's a rich more than someone from TX. Picking apples is not a 10 dollar an hour job. Operating heavy equipment, doing decent cement work, plumbing, electrical, paint, machine work, carpentry? Takes skill, and its hard work. Believe it or not, a lot of these supposedly unskilled, dumb illegals are pretty smart and skilled. As opposed to Mr. Manuel Labor that most people seem to picture.
ad hominem


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I did not realize that Mexico is starving and had a past of forcing people into collective farming resulting in the death of millions.
Go to Mexico, it ain't the Holodomor but it's not a first world country either.


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...except when they are paid in cash....except when a ton of the cash is sent back over the border rather than spent here....except when they dont own property at all...and I am sure companies paying people depressed wages under the table rather than decent wages to people who do actualy pay taxes and spend the cash localy is a huge economic boost....for Western Union anyway.
And that would be the biggest economic argument against immigration, the weekly Western Union check back to Mexico. The amount of money sent back is huge, but it is still a % of their income which does get spent locally.

Regarding the Property Taxes, I forgot about Gov. housing and military housing (but I'm sure Those immigrants aren't the issue) they don't truly pay Property Taxes. Everyone else does; just like a Corporate Income Tax the Consumer will pay either a portion or the entire amount depending on the elasticities of the local housing market.


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Yeah, someone's ID got stolen. I do have a problem with that. It can really fuckup someones life unfairly.
I was mainly pointing out the irony of the situation w/o regard to ID theft. ID theft by a migrant worker just to work is not the same as a professional ID thief. Again, with a reasonable policy this would not be a problem b/c everyone would be accounted for (and taxed appropriately).


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Go take a look at medical facilities in any of the border states. "putting one over?" Nope, but costing piles of cash? Yeah. Sorry that the truth does not workj for you, but lame generalizations dont make it all better. By the way, no medial professional I have ever known would refuse care, and nobody is putting anything forward I have seen to that effect. Which is sort of the point. Medical care is being delivered and it does cost money. Maybe if immigrants were not getting dragged over in the backs of non-ventilated U-Hauls by drug feinds with guns they would not need ER care as much. Might be nice for them. I dont particularly like my fate being in the hands of doped out half-assed slave traders personally.
Not my point at all. They shouldn't have to use smugglers to get in the country but the amount of people wanting to come over is too lopsided to stop this type of behavior. Further criminalizing it won't work either.


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Have you ever actually been in a bad area? Like without being stoned? Honestly? Have you seen what a homeless man on meth with absolutely no higher cognitive function and a bad temper will do?
ad hominem.

Sure, but how is that an argument against legalization? That is the problem under the Current System. Your example above is Exactly why it's not working. A certain % of the population will always have substance abuse problems but when you change the culture and enact rational policies that are proven to decrease substance abuse then you get results.

The organized crime problem and the waste of Tax Dollars that is the War on Drugs are worse things than a person making the decision to screw up their life.

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So let me see if this is correct: The drugs are at least related to the violence. So lets make the drugs more available. Great solution.
Go read up on Prohibition and get back to me.

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Originally Posted by Sparetire View Post
Incidentaly, a lot of the violence just might stem from the fact that you have desperate people with little to no cash in an unfamiliar land with a fair amount of hostile people around. Allowing businesses to pay the absolute market minimum is probably not going to help that.
?

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If you are expecting anyone in here to defend the right-wingers in DC than you have mis-read this place even more than I thought, which is actually quite a feat. **** the Republicans.
Indeed, **** all both of them and laugh at the extremists.

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Originally Posted by Sparetire View Post
So the model you would 'like to see' is one where people are exploited as labor with pretty much 0 protection against abuse. That really jives well with your picture there. And in terms of pure economics, I dont think having a huge portion of the population grow old without proper medical care or retirement benefits is a good idea. What do we do then? Invade Canada?
No, you missed my points entirely.



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How patriotic. Dude, the fact that AZ has done something stupid doesnt make any of your ideas worth pursuing.
The only real idea put out in my original text was the legalization of Drugs.

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You do condone it, and you just explained why. No **** we are a nation of immigrants. Maybe this time around we can also improve on histroy and not exploiting said people quite so much. The only thing in here I agree with a sensible legal immigration policy. One that does not allow for the lowest possible wages would be a nice start.
Fine, I'll clarify.

We need an sensible immigration policy that takes into account the cost/benefits of enforcing said immigration policies and their effects on our economy.

Putting up massive walls, deploying soldiers, and having Local Law Enforcement Officers making immigration a priority is a complete waste of money and resources. It ain't helping the deficit.

I don't advocate a completely open border like the EU has, but we need something akin to it. We need something that recognizes the fact that what's best for Both economies is a free flow of goods, capital & labor.

Instead of saying I don't condone illegally enter the country I'll say that Sovereign Countries have a right to make just laws that include immigration control.

"an unjust law is no law at all"

Chris
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Old 05-06-2010, 08:26 PM   #168
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I think the border would be a great place for the Army (or Marines/Navy/AF)to train and occupy time when not in war. Can you say live fire exercise? After the triple 7s start falling I guarantee no one crosses. Can't count the times those things saved my life.. literally.
The border isn't short enough.

Also, talk about a discouragement for recruitment. I don't know how the soldiers at Ft. Bliss handle it.

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Originally Posted by hustler View Post
With a minimum wage increase and mandated, taxed healthcare...well, the labor market doesn't want to pay that. When I worked for the same federal agency I work for now I made $9.75 per hour. While I was in Santa Fe I made this amount and its remarkable to consider that minimum wage was $9.92 per hour...with a mandated health benefits package. Do you think that's reasonable for a skilled, educated employee managing several million dollars to make the same wage as the person cleaning the hotel room? If that wage were not mandated, I'd praise the company and the employee...but its not.

Its easy to say Americans don't want jobs that illegals pay, but when you consider the market demand, mandated wage rates, and a brutal recession it makes sense to say "Americans don't want the jobs illegals assume" because the market can't support the mandated minimum wage.

As for illegals recieving the bare minimum...they recieve the bare minimum through the "indigent" classification wich is most likely obtained through a lack of documented income and the care is a charity afforded by the free-market health-care system.

Naturalize illegal aliens, let them pay taxes, and I will applaud every one that "takes a job" from the American trash which lives off extended welfare benefits. $12,000,000,000.00 deficit means its time to get real rather than bankroll Mexico's poor.
Agreed.

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Old 05-06-2010, 09:58 PM   #169
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There should be a fair system in place that more easily recognizes the need for migrant workers so that they don't have to compete on the black market. I'm not anti-union or anti-minimum wage. There's obviously a need for a minimum wage and supplemental income for the unemployed (masses of unemployed plus nothing to fall back on is a bad recipe for stability; **** the worries about them mooching off the government, revolution is the bigger threat).
Yes. But umemployed non-citizens should not be getting supplementary income. Thats their own country's job. (I think we agree here.) Illegals won't start a revolution though. The mooching is a primary concern. Becuas its not mooching off the gov. It's mooching of of us.

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Go to Mexico, it ain't the Holodomor but it's not a first world country either.
Been there a few times. It's not East Europe circa 1985. Illegals come over the border for money, plain and simple. The crap economy and especially the drop in construction actually appears to have reduced border crossings significantly for example. Point being that yes, you can discourage and for the most part stop illegal immigration with proper measures. And those measures can and should be taken right now.

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Originally Posted by Miatamaniac92 View Post
I was mainly pointing out the irony of the situation w/o regard to ID theft. ID theft by a migrant worker just to work is not the same as a professional ID thief.
No.

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Originally Posted by Miatamaniac92 View Post
Again, with a reasonable policy this would not be a problem b/c everyone would be accounted for (and taxed appropriately).
Yes.

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Originally Posted by Miatamaniac92 View Post
Not my point at all. They shouldn't have to use smugglers to get in the country but the amount of people wanting to come over is too lopsided to stop this type of behavior. Further criminalizing it won't work either.
Yes it will. The ease of getting in and making money is the reason it happens. This is not a flight from oppression or a journey to freedom. Its a journey for cash. Make it not worthwhile and its reduced greatly. The idea that this is some unstopable force of nature is a myth.

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Sure, but how is that an argument against legalization? That is the problem under the Current System. Your example above is Exactly why it's not working. A certain % of the population will always have substance abuse problems but when you change the culture and enact rational policies that are proven to decrease substance abuse then you get results.

The organized crime problem and the waste of Tax Dollars that is the War on Drugs are worse things than a person making the decision to screw up their life.

Go read up on Prohibition and get back to me.
The difference from crack to prohibition is that 1) The vast majority of Americans want and like alcohol. 2) Alcohol is not nearly as addictive or harmful. You are not going to have every citizen winking and nodding when a neighboor opens up a crack house like you did with speak-easys 80 years ago. For good reason. Prohibition created organized crime because it had so little popular support due to the fact that the vast majority of Americans knew that booze was not satans **** and could be consumed responsibly. Our culture has thousands of years of history with alcohol, not crack. Again, if you have widely available hard drugs you are going to have a lot of problems. I'm sure Amsterdam is awesome, and I would love to go. But that does'nt mean I want certain piblic areas set aside for heroin dens or whatever. The fact that we have a major drug problem in the country does not mean that a 180 degree about face is the answer.

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Originally Posted by Miatamaniac92 View Post
Fine, I'll clarify.

We need an sensible immigration policy that takes into account the cost/benefits of enforcing said immigration policies and their effects on our economy.
Yes.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Miatamaniac92 View Post
Putting up massive walls, deploying soldiers, and having Local Law Enforcement Officers making immigration a priority is a complete waste of money and resources. It ain't helping the deficit.
No.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Miatamaniac92 View Post
We need something that recognizes the fact that what's best for Both economies is a free flow of goods, capital & labor.
Yes.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Miatamaniac92 View Post
Instead of saying I don't condone illegally enter the country I'll say that Sovereign Countries have a right to make just laws that include immigration control.

"an unjust law is no law at all"
Yes.

Edit:

What I think we disagree on here more than anything else is the role of border enforcement. Having a proper system in place is essential, we do agree there. But lets say we do have a really effective work-visa thing going. Now the local coke-head who works for (insert cartel of your choice here) cannot get a visa because he's a known violent criminal. If there is no real border enforcement, he just comes over anyway and the wonderful new system we just made has failed in one very important regard: Security.

In other words, you need both. And for now, while we work on the policy/system side of that equation, you need to have strong security. Which is doable. This is not the Mekong delta in 1968. It's the desert southwest. We are close to our supply lines, we know the ground, we have the resources, the terrain is for the most part given to detection. You can maintain border security. We are not dealing with ideological opposites funded by a super-power who have been fighting the round-eye for generations. We are dealing with people who want to make a buck. That can be reasoned with and who will often act fairly rationaly.
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Old 05-13-2010, 01:42 AM   #170
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Listen up bitches...

------------------

A Mexican, an Arab,

and a Arizona girl are

in the same bar.

When the Mexican

finishes his beer,

he throws his glass

in the air, pulls out

his pistol, and shoots

the glass to pieces.

He says, 'In Mexico ,

our glasses are so

cheap we don't need

to drink with the same one twice.'

The Arab, obviously

impressed by this,

drinks non-alcohol beer

(cuz he's a muslim!),

throws it into the

air, pulls out his

AK-47, and shoots

the glass to pieces.

He says, 'In the

Arab World, we have

so much sand to make

glasses that we don't

need to drink with

the same one twice either.'

The Arizona girl,

cool as a cucumber,

picks up her beer,

downs it in one gulp,

throws the glass into

the air, whips out her

45, and shoots the

Mexican and the Arab.

Catching her glass,

setting it on the bar, and calling for a refill,

she says,

'In Arizona ,

we have so many

illegal aliens that

we don't have to

drink with the same ones twice.'



Yes, it's like that on purpose, deal with it. Yes, it's also predictable.

Discuss?

Saw the thread had been dead for a while, figured it needed a new log in the fire.
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Old 05-13-2010, 09:49 AM   #171
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it was immoral for her to kill the two individuals.
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Old 05-13-2010, 10:06 AM   #172
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No it wasnt. Humans are destroying the ecological balance of the Earth. They must be stopped. Have'nt you seen "After People"? Everything gets better once we are gone.
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Old 05-13-2010, 10:08 AM   #173
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better for who?


if you did not answer Braineack, then does not care.
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Old 05-13-2010, 10:11 AM   #174
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For the aminals.

Especially the Naugas. It's sick to see all the Naugahyde everywhere. It's murder. We are such horrible creatures.
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Old 05-13-2010, 10:13 AM   #175
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Everything gets better once we are gone.
Except the *****, because well, it's gone...

Killing the two immigrants wasn't just immoral, but a hate crime since it was obviously based on racial profiling, and not any actual check of legality. My guess is they weren't illegal since they probably got carded at the bar. (yes, I'm starting to take this seriously, because it's quickly going from a real debate on immigration reform to open, ethnocentric-fed hatred).



And immigrants are being "held down" by our immigration policy. It's an incredibly cumbersome process, and we do have caps on immigration that weren't there when our great grandfathers came over.

You can only seperate the wheat from the chaff with an effective filter, ie, an open, efficient immigration department that gives those that wish to come here real options.

Do you realize the average illegal spent $2000 to get here. Imagine if we charged just half that for processing (background checks, physicals etc). They'd be more than happy to take the legal route.

This debate is also being clouded with other issues, including drug trafficking. Once there is a front door policy for immigration, it will be much easier to tackle the illegal criminal activity, and illegal immigrant criminals in our cities as well.
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Old 05-13-2010, 02:43 PM   #176
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Do you realize the average illegal spent $2000 to get here. Imagine if we charged just half that for processing (background checks, physicals etc). They'd be more than happy to take the legal route.
Not when there is a waiting time to legally get here. Pay money and wait, and possibly be denied entry... or just walk across the border...
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Old 05-13-2010, 02:48 PM   #177
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Thats where the enforcement side of the equation comes in. Then it really is easier and more sensible and safer and economically beneficial to do it legally. 1000 legal vs 200 illegal is a no-brainer, especially if coming over illegally means that you may end up with longer delays due to being deported etc.
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Old 05-13-2010, 02:51 PM   #178
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Thats where the enforcement side of the equation comes in. Then it really is easier and more sensible and safer and economically beneficial to do it legally. 1000 legal vs 200 illegal is a no-brainer, especially if coming over illegally means that you may end up with longer delays due to being deported etc.
Well clearly there is a big disadvantage to coming in legally, because it seems that many on the southern border are coming in illegally. Don't know what the costs are to legally enter and stay here, but it must be more than they are willing to spend. Fix that and some of the problem will be solved.
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Old 05-13-2010, 03:03 PM   #179
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tax the rich, give to mexicans. problem solved. oppressing a minority to benefit a majority!
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Old 05-13-2010, 03:36 PM   #180
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Not when there is a waiting time to legally get here. Pay money and wait, and possibly be denied entry... or just walk across the border...
Like I said, comprehensive change, and I think I've said make INS more efficient like 20 times. In other words, my sentiments exactly, so fix it.

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tax the rich, give to mexicans. problem solved. oppressing a minority to benefit a majority!
Will you stop warping the issue?

How about we find a way to screen immigrants and allow them to be productive parts of society. Specifically to keep them off entitlement programs, and at least paying in some for those that are.
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