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Old 06-20-2012, 04:24 PM   #2261
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So I take it that you have no problem with the FED's lending $7.7 Trillion dollars to Euro banks during the bank crisis. No problems not because they didn't tell anybody, but because it's not real money anyway. PFEW! I was worried and fearmongered there for a second, but your graph has made me feel much better!
What was the negative impact of swapping ~$600 bln worth of USD for ~$600 bln worth of euros (plus interest) during the global financial credit lockup of 2008-2009?

What will be the negative impact of swapping ~$100 bln worth of USD for ~$100 bln worth of euros (plus interest) during the first quarter of 2012?



If you really want to educate yourself on the topic, I'm happy to take it to PM or email. If you have no interest in being open to a different perspective, I'll let you take the blue pill and not waste any more of anyone's time.
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Old 06-20-2012, 04:29 PM   #2262
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Obama in 2007 told CNN that Executive Priviledge was not a good reason to with hold information from Congress.



Obama in 2012 asserts executive privilege on some Fast and Furious documents
http://www.cnn.com/2012/06/20/politi...html?hpt=hp_t1
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Old 06-20-2012, 06:48 PM   #2263
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[QUOTEIf you really want to educate yourself on the topic, I'm happy to take it to PM or email. If you have no interest in being open to a different perspective, I'll let you take the blue pill and not waste any more of anyone's time. [/QUOTE]

No blue pill--and no "education" needed from you, Jack. I'm aware of the issues, and side with the WSJ article.

Perhaps this little rap video will put things in more perspective...

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Old 06-20-2012, 07:53 PM   #2264
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Originally Posted by cordycord View Post
No blue pill--and no "education" needed from you, Jack. I'm aware of the issues, and side with the WSJ article.

Perhaps this little rap video will put things in more perspective...
Actually, you are reinforcing my point about flawed foundations resulting in faulty analysis.

Mark - For a bonus prize, what did Hayek, Keynes, and von Mises all operate under that is no longer relevant to the analysis of US economic and banking operations?
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Old 06-20-2012, 08:15 PM   #2265
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Originally Posted by Scrappy Jack View Post
Actually, you are reinforcing my point about flawed foundations resulting in faulty analysis.

Mark - For a bonus prize, what did Hayek, Keynes, and von Mises all operate under that is no longer relevant to the analysis of US economic and banking operations?
I know the answer to your question, and the answer itself is one of the differences in theory that we share, and a partial reason for the 'house of cards' statement.
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Old 06-20-2012, 08:17 PM   #2266
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$9 Billion in ‘Stimulus’ for Solar, Wind Projects Made 910 Final Jobs -- $9.8 Million Per Job

http://cnsnews.com/news/article/9-bi...98-million-job

...house of cards
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Old 06-21-2012, 09:59 AM   #2267
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I know the answer to your question, and the answer itself is one of the differences in theory that we share, and a partial reason for the 'house of cards' statement.
Being a sovereign issuer of a free-float fiat currency is not a theory. It is an observation of what is.

Saying a government controlled fixed currency (e.g a peg to gold) is better than what we have is an opinion. Basing predictions on what someone thinks should be, rather than what is, leads to flawed analysis like those examples I have pointed out (and many more that I haven't).

And, in many cases, that flawed analysis leads to high blood pressure and pulling out of one's hair unnecessarily () or to being curmudgeonly far beyond one's years ().
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Old 06-21-2012, 10:22 AM   #2268
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Ha. Last night my wife said I have an Issa boner. I am beyond my years.
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Old 06-21-2012, 12:08 PM   #2269
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Scrappy Jack View Post
Being a sovereign issuer of a free-float fiat currency is not a theory. It is an observation of what is.

Saying a government controlled fixed currency (e.g a peg to gold) is better than what we have is an opinion. Basing predictions on what someone thinks should be, rather than what is, leads to flawed analysis like those examples I have pointed out (and many more that I haven't).

And, in many cases, that flawed analysis leads to high blood pressure and pulling out of one's hair unnecessarily () or to being curmudgeonly far beyond one's years ().
This.

I'm sympathetic to the communication struggle going on in this thread right now.

I'm still ideologically committed to the principles of an extremely limited government and an almost entirely free market. I firmly believe that only allowing individuals to make economic decisions using their own money results in increased and long-lasting wealth. I believe that government spending, by its nature (see: Milton Friedman's Four Ways to Spend Money), is economically inefficient compared to private spending, and actually drains resources that would otherwise be available for private consumption. Moreover, the inevitable malinvestment created through government spending distorts market prices for the private sector, creating all kinds of false incentives and disincentives with long-lasting detrimental effects on the economy.

I'm troubled that the MMT structure requires our government to wield public spending and taxation as tools to adjust sectoral balance, and that the trade-off for the (apparent) resilience of the monetary system is a constant unequal distribution of created money via government spending (see: poured honey analogy). While I recognize the problems with a strict gold standard or gold-pegged standard, I am by my nature much more comfortable with the natural budget constraint it places on government spending (admitting that plenty of gold or commodity-constrained governments have spent themselves into bankruptcy).

That said --

I am trying to learn how to re-apply my ideological principles to the language and structure of the monetary system as it currently operates. Any critique of MMT itself or of current government policy is doomed to confusion and failure if it's couched in the language of a gold-pegged, budget-constrained system.
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Old 06-21-2012, 01:16 PM   #2270
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Scrappy Jack View Post
Being a sovereign issuer of a free-float fiat currency is not a theory. It is an observation of what is.
I'm just waiting for feudal serfdom to come back into vogue...now THAT was a system.
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Old 06-21-2012, 01:22 PM   #2271
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mgeoffriau View Post
This.

I'm sympathetic to the communication struggle going on in this thread right now.

I'm still ideologically committed to the principles of an extremely limited government and an almost entirely free market. I firmly believe that only allowing individuals to make economic decisions using their own money results in increased and long-lasting wealth. I believe that government spending, by its nature (see: Milton Friedman's Four Ways to Spend Money), is economically inefficient compared to private spending, and actually drains resources that would otherwise be available for private consumption. Moreover, the inevitable malinvestment created through government spending distorts market prices for the private sector, creating all kinds of false incentives and disincentives with long-lasting detrimental effects on the economy.

I'm troubled that the MMT structure requires our government to wield public spending and taxation as tools to adjust sectoral balance, and that the trade-off for the (apparent) resilience of the monetary system is a constant unequal distribution of created money via government spending (see: poured honey analogy). While I recognize the problems with a strict gold standard or gold-pegged standard, I am by my nature much more comfortable with the natural budget constraint it places on government spending (admitting that plenty of gold or commodity-constrained governments have spent themselves into bankruptcy).

That said --

I am trying to learn how to re-apply my ideological principles to the language and structure of the monetary system as it currently operates. Any critique of MMT itself or of current government policy is doomed to confusion and failure if it's couched in the language of a gold-pegged, budget-constrained system.
Completely agree, and my central point is not the return to gold, but a return to a real accounting system in the public sector. MY definition of real, not Scrappy's.
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Old 06-21-2012, 01:30 PM   #2272
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Originally Posted by cordycord View Post
I'm just waiting for feudal serfdom to come back into vogue...now THAT was a system.
It will only take "Four More Years"
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Old 06-21-2012, 02:33 PM   #2273
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I could use some white privileges right now, whatever they may be, lol

http://d-umn.campusreform.org/group/...hite-privilege
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Old 06-21-2012, 07:26 PM   #2274
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My fear is that like the housing bubble, there we are experiencing a bubble in the banking industry. The weakest banks right now could be those in Europe, and we're not strong enough economically to withstand that kind of bailout.
...What I said two days ago.


http://www.cnbc.com/id/47903018
Moody’s Downgrade of 15 Banks Expected After the Bell

Did I mention that I work for Moody's?
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Old 06-21-2012, 07:38 PM   #2275
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What if things never get better and the us collapses?
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Old 06-21-2012, 08:58 PM   #2276
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What if things never get better and the us collapses?
It depends on your definition of "collapse", which is a word that can be applied in many different ways. (Economic, moral, political, lemon meringue pie, etc.)

If you mean a complete collapse of both the economy and the government, it already did in 1991. Except that it was the USSR. Different name, same sandvich.
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Old 06-21-2012, 09:21 PM   #2277
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Originally Posted by cordycord View Post
...What I said two days ago.


http://www.cnbc.com/id/47903018
Moody’s Downgrade of 15 Banks Expected After the Bell

Did I mention that I work for Moody's?
My first reaction is:



The ratings agencies are always and ever either behind the curve or completely wrong.

August 5, 2011: S&P downgrades US debt from AAA


On the other hand, European banks have been undercapitalized for a long time (they did not delever nearly as quickly as the US banks) and they are operating in a flawed currency system with each nation acting as a currency user like a US state but without the constant internal transfer system we have.
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Old 06-21-2012, 10:52 PM   #2278
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Originally Posted by Scrappy Jack View Post
My first reaction is:



The ratings agencies are always and ever either behind the curve or completely wrong.

August 5, 2011: S&P downgrades US debt from AAA


On the other hand, European banks have been undercapitalized for a long time (they did not delever nearly as quickly as the US banks) and they are operating in a flawed currency system with each nation acting as a currency user like a US state but without the constant internal transfer system we have.
You sure you're not Barney Frank?
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Old 06-21-2012, 11:27 PM   #2279
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If you mean a complete collapse of both the economy and the government, it already did in 1991. Except that it was the USSR. Different name, same sandvich.
this. lets say the economy never springs back, stays depressed, people stay out of work, everything looks like Detroit, mad max, in 200 years u.s. is no longer...
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Old 06-21-2012, 11:58 PM   #2280
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this. lets say the economy never springs back, stays depressed, people stay out of work, everything looks like Detroit, mad max, in 200 years u.s. is no longer...
You mean something like a record $80 billion/year in food stamps (46 million people), black unemployment at depression levels, a trillion dollars in student debt, unsustainable (never paid) Social Security and a rising retirement age, and all this with a dollar that's rapidly losing value?

Whoever's in charge needs four more years!

http://articles.businessinsider.com/...s-news-reports

http://money.cnn.com/2011/08/04/pf/f...high/index.htm

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-500395_162-57429655/student-debt-clock-strikes-$1-trillion/

Remain calm...all is well!

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