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Old 09-14-2012, 12:34 AM   #2941
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Default Libya & Egypt

I'm having a really, really hard time thinking that how Romney reacted is worse than the cluster **** that Obama and his State department created. When we all found out that an ambassador had been murdered (that hasn't happened since Jimmy Carter was president, hmmmm), Romney's statement looked all the more vindicated.

Let's just look at today's news:

State department had credible information about the attacks 48 hours before. Even if not, it's 9/11 in a bunch of unstable Muslim-run countries!!! What do you want to do, wear your best red/white/blue shirt and go jogging outside the nearest mosque?

Obama says Egypt isn't exactly an ally, but kinda is. There's strong leadership there.

There were 400 attackers in Libya, and RPG's among other weapons were used. Targeted and suppression fire was used--military tactics. This CLEARLY wasn't a bunch of natives who were pissed off because of a movie no one's seen.

And now while Obama goes on Letterman, parties with Jay Z and Pimp with a Limp, he doesn't have time to meet with the only democracy in the region.

What we're seeing in action is the opposite of "peace through strength".
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Old 09-14-2012, 12:39 AM   #2942
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If you are so confident, Cordy, start laying money down on Romney.

The odds are incredibly in your favor and you stand to make a lot of cash if he wins. However, it's really not worth even trying to refute that latest post of yours, as at Sixshooter's recommendation, I'm no longer going to blatantly mock people who cannot even be bothered to do a basic google search.

However, I will note the most basic of google searches reveals http://www.nytimes.com/2012/09/13/us...pagewanted=all and that it is a story based on Romney's actions, not on Obama's. Even Republicans are severely criticizing Romney over his actions. This isn't some "lefty conspiracy", this is Romney was severely inappropriate and is being criticized by all sides of the aisle and everyone in-between. Polls, predictors, even betting houses are reflecting a substantial sway in Obama's direction as a result - and not because of anything Obama did, but only because of what Romney did. Frankly, I'm having a great deal of difficulty correlating the known facts of the situation with what you are claiming. At best, it is a substantially distorted and completely twisted version of several of the events, while trying to completely ignore other inconvenient events that have happened.

Last edited by blaen99; 09-14-2012 at 12:51 AM.
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Old 09-14-2012, 01:55 AM   #2943
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Quote:
Originally Posted by blaen99 View Post
If you are so confident, Cordy, start laying money down on Romney.

The odds are incredibly in your favor and you stand to make a lot of cash if he wins. However, it's really not worth even trying to refute that latest post of yours, as at Sixshooter's recommendation, I'm no longer going to blatantly mock people who cannot even be bothered to do a basic google search.

However, I will note the most basic of google searches reveals http://www.nytimes.com/2012/09/13/us...pagewanted=all and that it is a story based on Romney's actions, not on Obama's. Even Republicans are severely criticizing Romney over his actions. This isn't some "lefty conspiracy", this is Romney was severely inappropriate and is being criticized by all sides of the aisle and everyone in-between. Polls, predictors, even betting houses are reflecting a substantial sway in Obama's direction as a result - and not because of anything Obama did, but only because of what Romney did. Frankly, I'm having a great deal of difficulty correlating the known facts of the situation with what you are claiming. At best, it is a substantially distorted and completely twisted version of several of the events, while trying to completely ignore other inconvenient events that have happened.
Listen, Arab Spring FAIL. Obama and Clinton NOT protecting our consulate FAIL. Consulate tweets on day of FAIL. Dead ambassador FAIL. Weak response FAIL. Sending $2 billion to Egypt so they can buy submarines from Germany FAIL. This whole episode has been a foreign affairs embarrassment. Romney response totally appropriate.
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Old 09-14-2012, 02:56 AM   #2944
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Cordy, You are completely wrong on several points. Six, I'm taking this as an okay to rip Cordy's argument apart, don't run around crying because he escalated.

Quote:
Originally Posted by cordycord View Post
Listen, Arab Spring FAIL.
This is ridiculous, and you should know better. The only possible argument that you can even try to make around the Arab Spring is what, we walk in and put in our own dictator, ignoring the democracies of other countries? The same behavior that we have done in the past that has made the Middle East such a clusterfuck today? That we invade to stop their demands for democracy?

It's a ridiculous and stupid argument, and you should be better than that to even make it.

Quote:
Obama and Clinton NOT protecting our consulate FAIL.
Completely wrong. Obama specifically removed most of the staff at the consulate, leaving nothing more than a skeleton staff. This is standard operating procedure for any embassies under potential threat, and has been for decades. Obama followed the SOP that Bush did, that Clinton did, that Bush did, that Reagan did, that.....every president since at least the '60s has if a consulate is under threat. Or do you seriously think that a fully staffed embassy would have only as few people as were in there that day?

Quote:
Consulate tweets on day of FAIL.
Which has nothing to do with Obama, was not approved by his administration, and was done solely on the consulate's own. Not only this, but it was posted HOURS before the attack - which is one of the points of which Romney lied in his attack, btw.

Quote:
Dead ambassador FAIL.
The ambassador chose to stay after being warned. What more do you want?

Quote:
Weak response FAIL.
And you want us to what exactly? Do what Bush did, and declare war? Do you want Obama to do what Romney did, and go off half-cocked making up **** as he went and causing a massive international and domestic shitfest? Obama's displayed the correct reactions so far, and something that I've found completely lacking in our current Republican candidate. Do you know what that is? 'Cause let me tell you. The ability to STFU, sit down, and try to understand what he's talking about before he opens his mouth.

Quote:
Sending $2 billion to Egypt so they can buy submarines from Germany FAIL.
Irrelevant. I'm also calling bullshit, since you never give a **** about foreign aid and/or are on the side that defends foreign aid when I bring it up as a counter to the repeated "OMG, ENTITLEMENTS!" arguments.

Quote:
This whole episode has been a foreign affairs embarrassment for Romney and his response was totally inappropriate.
FTFY. You have to realize something. Romney is absolutely ridiculous when it comes to foreign affairs. He's even managed to **** off our closest ally, Britain, at him for ****'s sake. What Romney displayed was merely Bush all over again - and until Obama gets us into two major wars, you'll have to pardon me for pointing out Obama's record in this area is a hell of a lot better than the Republicans.

Finally, let me say one last thing, and make something very clear here. I had a personal friend that died in the embassy, Cordy. He was known in the game I played as Vile Rat and was someone who was a real Big Shot in the alliance I was in when I played - this particular subject is sickening to me. You are trying to either make up things out of whole cloth, or exaggerate things to such an extent that they are unrecognizable from what really happened. On behalf of myself who had a personal friend die in that, "GDIAF, **** you for making my friend's death political, and not only that but ******* making up **** completely about his death." Yes, you just pissed me off badly enough to make my first personal attack on politics.

Last edited by blaen99; 09-14-2012 at 03:15 AM.
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Old 09-14-2012, 04:43 AM   #2945
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Not worth my time Blaen. Have a nice life.
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Old 09-14-2012, 05:16 AM   #2946
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You cross a ******* line, and don't even have the ******* courage to hold your line or back down?

Here's a ******* protip for you, Cordy.

Quote:
I'm a former MSG and what oeneus said is more or less correct. The top of our list is "Destroy the following shiat in the event of an embassy breach". Moving beyond that our goal is to support the State Department in their goals long term diplomatic goals, not mow down crowds with .50 caliber fire. Mass killings tend to put a chill a diplomacy and create long term problems. Had Marine Security Guards been there they likely would have been busy destroying stuff, fighting fires, and moving staff to safe rooms. There really isn't an "empty the armory and kill hundreds of people" page in the security guard book. The State Department is pissed about the dead staff, they'd be even more pissed had the locals been massacred. Sometimes your the unit that gets to be the first ashore (read: 90% causality rate) and sometimes your the State Department worker who buys the farm for being in a hostile environment. No one likes to admit it, but sometimes a platoon or two of dead Americans are better than the alternative in the long run.

For that matter the 50 person team that is getting dropped off is likely laden down with LRADs, Tear Gas, and all kinds of fun non lethal toys. They'll likely sandbag in some weapons like 40mm grenade launchers or the like as kind of a visible do not fark with us symbol (and you can fire all kinds of fun nonlethal shiat from the 40mm). However the real security will be the Libyan military, paramilitary, or riot police units that get are setting up camp around an embassy. If the locals heads have to be cracked, you want locals doing the cracking, much less of a backlash that way. 10 Libyan security guards died defending the embassy. The real difference is today there are a shiatload more Libyan security guards out front. In general the Marines tend to lie low in hostile environments as American troops tend to upset the already hostile locals. It's much harder to incite the locals to kill a bunch of their neighbors who happen to guard the embassy gates for a job than it is to incite the locals some evil infidel Americans at the gates.

If say Saturday the Libyans come over the all, the Marines orders likely are to use nonlethal methods to buy time and either move everyone to safe rooms or evac them via APCs/helicopters/etc.

Honestly the Egyptian embassy was handled perfectly. People saw it coming and got the fark out of the way. The protesters tore down a flag, chanted a bit, and got it out of their system. No one died and al-Qaeda had no martyrs. All the staff were either in secure areas of the compound or out of there completely. Libya wasn't handled badly considering what a shiatty they hand were dealt. Reports are suggesting the ambassador suffocated to death and for that matter a second group of Libyans came in and tried to carry him to the hospital. It wasn't like security was so bad someone walked into his office and shot him in the head. Dead people is never good, but as far as bad situations go it wasn't made worse by American actions (based on reports so far). Had MSGs been there then maybe one of them might have dragged the Ambassador to safety, a medic might have saved him, but that's all just speculation. Basically the Libyan Embassy did have functional security in that the local security guards stood their ground and died for their loyalty. They didn't just bail and leave the doors open. Nothing short of parking a massive military force would have broken up that mob and if we'd done that from Day 1 it would have created bad blood and increased the odds of confrontation. You don't always want your embassy to be the massively secure compound that showcases American military might, that just tends to increase the odds someone tries to fark with you in an effort to create martyrs.
You want analysis? There you go. And unlike wherever the **** you got that wrong info on, this guy actually knows what he's talking about. The MSG he refers to, incidentally, are the marines stationed at the embassy. Romney went way the **** too far here, and even he knows it - note his half-hearted apologies.

As for the citizens there? Hell, here you go: http://www.buzzfeed.com/jtes/12-phot...gizing-to-amer
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Old 09-14-2012, 08:56 AM   #2947
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In other news, did anyone watch Stossel last night?

I wish there was more time before the election so Gary Johnson actually stood a chance.
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Old 09-14-2012, 09:19 AM   #2948
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Originally Posted by cordycord View Post
Not worth my time Blaen. Have a nice life.
The only way to solve this is to bet on it.
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Old 09-14-2012, 09:52 AM   #2949
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I'm sorry for your loss.
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Old 09-14-2012, 11:56 AM   #2950
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Part of living in a democracy is allowing other people their point of view. Blaen ain't gonna change his POV, and I simply refuse to get in a mud fight over it. I'll hold my personal views about him to myself, and hope that he learns to do the same.
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Old 09-14-2012, 12:02 PM   #2951
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part of being a liberal is being the champion of personal freedoms/choice, only when they agree with yours.

:P
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Old 09-14-2012, 12:30 PM   #2952
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vashthestampede View Post
I wish there was more time before the election so Gary Johnson actually stood a chance.
I'd put more weight into Gary Johnson's so called budget sanity stuff if his own campaign wasn't in massive debt.
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Old 09-14-2012, 12:32 PM   #2953
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Default in keeping with the thread opener

As Braineak wanted to keep this thread in good humor--something that I've had a problem with on occasion--here's something to get it back on track:
Attached Thumbnails
Political/Current Events Random, Pics, and Videos Thread-800x538xtooncf_091412.jpg.cms_.jpeg.pagespeed.b.ic.ozuv0zmkc1.jpg  
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Old 09-14-2012, 12:34 PM   #2954
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Originally Posted by mgeoffriau View Post
I'd put more weight into Gary Johnson's so called budget sanity stuff if his own campaign wasn't in massive debt.
I heard his campaign accountant smokes dope.
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Old 09-14-2012, 12:43 PM   #2955
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I heard his campaign accountant smokes dope.
Hey, practice what you preach, right?
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Old 09-14-2012, 04:12 PM   #2956
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Default self-censorship

The Obama Administration Pressures YouTube to Remove Video - Hit & Run : Reason.com

The Middle East isn't blowing up because of a movie that was released in June--it's just an excuse. To see our government take the bait and try to suppress someone's 1st Amendment rights--even a whack job like this--makes me cringe.

IMO, I think it's time for another Mohammed cartoon contest.
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Old 09-14-2012, 06:03 PM   #2957
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They tried with the bill last year to control the internet so now they go directly?
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Old 09-14-2012, 06:31 PM   #2958
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Default Another record!!!

Boy, this has only happened once before. How'd we get so lucky? U.S. gets another debt downgrade...

US Credit Rating Cut by Egan-Jones ... Again - US Business News - CNBC

"...In its downgrade, the firm said that issuing more currency and depressing interest rates through purchasing mortgage-backed securities does little to raise the U.S.'s real gross domestic product, but reduces the value of the dollar.

In turn, this increases the cost of commodities, which will pressure the profitability of businesses and increase the costs of consumers thereby reducing consumer purchasing power, the firm said..."

This means that although your 401K went up yesterday with the FED action, you'll soon be paying $20 for a lollipop.
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Old 09-14-2012, 06:35 PM   #2959
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don't politicize lollipops.
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Old 09-14-2012, 10:05 PM   #2960
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Quote:
Originally Posted by blaen99 View Post
You cross a ******* line, and don't even have the ******* courage to hold your line or back down?

Here's a ******* protip for you, Cordy.



You want analysis? There you go. And unlike wherever the **** you got that wrong info on, this guy actually knows what he's talking about. The MSG he refers to, incidentally, are the marines stationed at the embassy. Romney went way the **** too far here, and even he knows it - note his half-hearted apologies.

As for the citizens there? Hell, here you go: 15 Photos Of Libyans Apologizing To Americans
That's an interesting analysis. What's the source?
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