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Old 01-22-2013, 02:01 PM   #3621
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I just dont want to pay to support communism.
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Old 01-22-2013, 02:07 PM   #3622
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I just dont want to pay to support communism.
Communism or socialism? The two are not the same.

You've been paying to support socialism your whole life. So have your parents. Your grandparents or great-grandparents started in 1935. By dollars paid, the U.S. Social Security program is the largest government program in the world.
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Old 01-22-2013, 02:17 PM   #3623
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Why cut anything at all?

Has the US Federal government made any significant cuts in the past few years?

Is a surplus assumed to always be a good thing and a deficit always a bad thing?
How can this be an honest conversation with no budget?
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Old 01-22-2013, 02:17 PM   #3624
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did you listen to obama's speech yesterday?

I didnt say we are living in communism now, but i also didnt say we arent living in a type of socialism as well.

the differences are nil; slavery by force or slavery by vote. in the end, all you're left with is bread lines.

honestly, it's like trying to determine if having a virus or diease is worse when you only have 5 days left to live.

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Old 01-22-2013, 03:02 PM   #3625
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"Gonorrhea, herpes, or cake?"
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Old 01-22-2013, 03:03 PM   #3626
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How can this be an honest conversation with no budget?
This is a very legitimate question. I think the fact that the Senate has not passed a budget is pretty ridiculous. They have appropriations and other spending bills keeping the thing chugging along.


Still, go back to those three questions I posed. Give them some legitimate thought and then see what your answers are. Everyone keeps trying to come up with a solution without defining the actual problem (or checking to see if their definition fits reality).
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Old 01-22-2013, 03:25 PM   #3627
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how baout this scrappy:

out of principle, I dont want the fed to provide most of the services they do. They are not designed to be a service provider and have no way to fund service without taxes, unlike any other industry which provide a services in order to make a profit, grow, and provide a better service for less cost than competition.

So, if we simply got rid of the services they "provide" it will fix the budget "problem"

Last edited by Braineack; 01-23-2013 at 10:15 AM.
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Old 01-22-2013, 09:46 PM   #3628
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President Obama can't catch a break. He again inherits a mess from the previous administration.

Funnier still. Industry can provide those services AND profit. Gov't can't even break even!
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Old 01-23-2013, 10:21 AM   #3629
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President Obama can't catch a break. He again inherits a mess from the previous administration.

Funnier still. Industry can provide those services AND profit. Gov't can't even break even!

what's going to be annoying is, we'll finally have the recovery we should have almost immediately had, then everyone will praise him; even though there should have been a substantial recovery during his first term.



recessions are almost always followed by a quick recovery putting us further ahead. notice all the "Vs" in the graph, but take special notice where we didnt spike back up in two places: ~1960 and ~2009.

Obama followed the exact same method that Kennedy did in the 60s; the only other time in modern history where recovery was slowed. Yet, sometime in the next four years, he's going to be praised upon ivory towers for the recovery, not condemnation for radically slowing it.


and here's a good read on it:

Richard Vedder: The Wages of Unemployment

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The national income accounts suggest that about 70% of U.S. output is attributable to the labor of human beings. Yet there has been a decline in the proportion of working-age Americans who are employed. …The decline matters more than you may suppose. If today the country had the same proportion of persons of working age employed as it did in 2000, the U.S. would have almost 14 million more people contributing to the economy. …Why are Americans working less? While there are a number of factors, the phenomenon is due mainly to a variety of public policies that have reduced the incentives to be employed.
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If the government provides food, then the imperative to work is severely reduced. Since the food-stamp program’s beginning in the 1960s, it has grown considerably, but especially so in the 21st century: There are over 30 million more Americans receiving food stamps today than in 2000.
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Barely three million Americans received work-related disability checks from Social Security in 1990, a number that had changed only modestly in the preceding decade or two. Since then, the number of people drawing disability checks has soared, passing five million by 2000, 6.5 million by 2005, and rising to nearly 8.6 million today. In a series of papers, David Autor of MIT has shown that the disability program is ineffective, inefficient, and growing at an unsustainable rate.
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…the traditional 26-week benefit has been continuously extended over the past four years—many persons out of work a year or more are still receiving benefits. True enough, the economy isn’t growing very much. But if you pay people to stay at home, many will do so rather than seek employment or accept jobs where the pay doesn’t meet their expectations.
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Old 01-23-2013, 10:39 AM   #3630
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Originally Posted by Scrappy Jack View Post
Why cut anything at all?

Has the US Federal government made any significant cuts in the past few years?

Is a surplus assumed to always be a good thing and a deficit always a bad thing?
I'm going to leave these numbers here. They represent the deficit as a percentage of GDP.

2007: -1.20%
2008: -3.20%
2009: -10.10%
2010: -9.00%
2011: -8.70%
2012: -7% (preliminary estimate)

The Federal fiscal deficit is shrinking as a percent of GDP and not continuing to grow exponentially?!




Here's how it looked before, during and after a different kind of recession in the 1980s.

1981: -2.60%
1982: -4.00%
1983: -6.00%
1984: -4.80%
1985: -5.10%
1986: -5.00%
1987: -3.20%
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Old 01-23-2013, 11:11 AM   #3631
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I wonder what they'd look like if a budget was actually passed?

The only reason the 2009 and 2010 numbers got so awful was because they lost so much revenue from income earners [due to lost jobs] and added a good number of them to welfare recipients via food stamps/unemployement.

so right now, since we haven't revised a budget to account for the lack of income earners, those numbers, by default, are going to look like that as we slowly increase the labor force and continue with the same non-budget gov't.
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Old 01-23-2013, 12:09 PM   #3632
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Clinton Shouting:

Why do you care why the attack happened? what difference does it make?

...

It is our job to figure out what happened and do whatever we can to prevent it from happening again...

...blah blah blah...

...it is less important to find out why and more to bring them to justice...maybe figure out what happened.
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Old 01-23-2013, 01:10 PM   #3633
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Old 01-23-2013, 02:09 PM   #3634
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Originally Posted by Braineack View Post
I wonder what they'd look like if a budget was actually passed?

The only reason the 2009 and 2010 numbers got so awful was because they lost so much revenue from income earners [due to lost jobs] and added a good number of them to welfare recipients via food stamps/unemployement.

so right now, since we haven't revised a budget to account for the lack of income earners, those numbers, by default, are going to look like that as we slowly increase the labor force and continue with the same non-budget gov't.
The reason the deficit grew is the same reason it is shrinking: the global financial crisis. The deficit grew primarily due to the weakness in the private sector (households and corporations): unemployment insurance payments went up, tax receipts went down as people either lost their jobs or made less at the jobs they had. Growth and tax receipts went down, spending went up to try and compensate.

As the economy recovers, people in aggregate make more because more people find jobs and/or make more money. Some of the latter is because people have either written down or paid off debt (aka "deleveraged") which has freed up income for other spending. That spending is demand for the goods and services of someone else (so those producers make more money).


That's the point that the Europeans (and Republicans?) or the Japanese in the mid-'90s keep missing. Unless you somehow eliminate those "automatic stabilizers" significantly raising taxes and/or significantly cutting spending during weak economic growth will increase deficits.

There are some fun quotes out there from just a couple of years ago about people extrapolating into the future and worrying that fiscal deficit growth would be a permanent function. Like a lot of other things the past several years, there were some key misunderstandings involved. Also, like a lot of things since the dawn of civilization, there were a lot of political and financial motives for spreading that misinformation.
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Old 01-24-2013, 12:56 AM   #3635
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Default Hillary's debt finally paid off!

...and not a moment too soon. Hillary Clinton's campaign debt was FINALLY paid off, just ONE DAY before her testimony on Benghazi.

This must be a coincidence, right? Like cancelling the missile shield for Poland on the anniversary of the Soviet Invasion of Poland, or Jeep waiting until after the election to announce that [the Italian] company would be building cars in China, or how Obama told us that we'd be able to keep our health insurance if we liked it, or that health insurance costs would go down?

Who is stoopid enough to believe these lies? Raise your hand--I can see you through my computer screen.

Hillary Clinton’s campaign debt finally paid off – CNN Political Ticker - CNN.com Blogs
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Old 01-24-2013, 08:06 AM   #3636
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Old 01-24-2013, 12:30 PM   #3637
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Obama followed the exact same method that Kennedy did in the 60s; the only other time in modern history where recovery was slowed. Yet, sometime in the next four years, he's going to be praised upon ivory towers for the recovery, not condemnation for radically slowing it.

It's Official: Worst. Recovery. EVER | Zero Hedge
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Old 01-24-2013, 01:57 PM   #3638
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Default beat me to it :P)

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Originally Posted by Braineack View Post
Scrappy NEEDS charts.

The Republicans are crap. Worthless. The only thing liberals are fighting against now is math, and even math has trouble with lies.

How do you use math to prove the real unemployment rate when the government disappears 8 1/2 MILLION people from the labor pool?
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Old 01-24-2013, 03:41 PM   #3639
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Old 01-24-2013, 03:41 PM   #3640
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Examiner Editorial: Head Start finally gets tested -- and flunks

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There are few institutions more sacrosanct in Washington than President Johnson’s Head Start program. The federal government spent more than $7.9 billion on the program in 2012 alone to provide preschool services for nearly 1 million low-income Americans. The program represents everything that is supposedly great about the liberal welfare state. It redistributes resources from wealthy to poor. It uses the power of the federal government to combat inequality by giving poor and minority students an educational boost before they fall behind their wealthier peers. There’s just one problem: It doesn’t work.

...

The ongoing randomized study of Head Start was based on a nationally representative sample of 5,000 children who applied for the program in 2002. Approximately half of the subjects received Head Start services, while the other half did not. The students were then tested on their language, literacy, math and school performance skills. …the 2010 Head Start Impact Study report notes, “the benefits of access to Head Start at age four are largely absent by 1st grade for the program population as a whole.” Specifically, the language, literacy, math and school performance skills of the Head Start children all failed to improve. …Now, the HHS has finally published a follow-up to its 2010 study that follows the same children through the end of third grade. And again, the HHS has concluded that Head Start is ineffective, concluding that Heat Start resulted in “very few impacts … in any of the four domains of cognitive, social-emotional, health and parenting practices.” And those impacts that were found “did not show a clear pattern of favorable or unfavorable impacts for children.

...

Since 1965, the federal government has spent $180 billion on Head Start. …Does that sound like a program you’d want to spend $8 billion on next year?
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