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Old 03-20-2013, 02:33 PM   #4061
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I like the idea of a fair tax.
I infer from context that you consider a "Fair Tax" to be different from what we conventionally know as a "Flat Tax."

Is the distinction here simply whether the tax is applied to income vs. expenditures?

Generally, when we think of a sales tax we think of the tax which is collected at the cash register when we are buying car parts, Hawaiian shirts or personal lubricant. A similar tax is also collected directly by the state when we initially register a car which we have just purchased.

Would a "Fair Tax" be collected in the same manner?

Would it apply to purchase of capital goods by a corporation?

Would it apply to the purchase of real estate by an individual?

Would it apply to the purchase of investment instruments such as bonds or securities?

Would it apply only to purchases made within the US, or would it also extend (in a manner similar to state Use Tax) to purchases made by Americans directly from non-American suppliers? In other words, when I purchase a custom-made $800 lithium battery from a British citizen living in China (this is a real example), how would this situation be handled?
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Old 03-20-2013, 02:40 PM   #4062
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I like the idea of a fair tax. This book is a great read about how it would actually work in practice.

The Fair Tax Book: Saying Goodbye to the Income Tax and the IRS: Neal Boortz, John Linder: 9780060875497: Amazon.com: Books
i dont trust anything with the word fair in it.

because god forbid things are really fair over in the EU VAT countries.

I would only be for the "fair" tax if congress added an amendment that said income tax was then illegal. I dont want to pay VAT + income tax and since we all know we should trust our gov't worth a lick, they will abuse it to pay for "jobs creation".


where jobs creation = lining pockets.

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Old 03-20-2013, 02:41 PM   #4063
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Old 03-20-2013, 02:43 PM   #4064
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Americans For Fair Taxation

Flat Tax | FreedomWorks

Besides simplification and flattening of the tax rates, the POWER needs to be taken away from the special interests, unions, corporatists...whatever you want to call them. I know, it's impossible to take the politics out of politicians, but our current system is busted.
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Old 03-20-2013, 02:54 PM   #4065
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remember when we were talking about the napkin?

Quote:
…new Department of Finance figures showing that tobacco excise tax receipts are falling dramatically short of targets, even though taxes have increased and the number of people smoking has remained constant…the latest upsurge in smuggling…is costing the state hundreds of millions in lost revenue. Criminal gangs are openly selling smuggled cigarettes on the streets of central Dublin and other cities, door to door and at fairs and markets. Counterfeit cigarettes can be brought to the Irish market at a cost of just 20 cents a pack and sold on the black market at €4.50. The average selling price of legitimate cigarettes is €9.20 a pack. …Ireland has the most expensive cigarettes in the European Union, meaning that smugglers can make big profits by offering them at cheaper prices.
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Old 03-20-2013, 03:22 PM   #4066
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe Perez View Post
I infer from context that you consider a "Fair Tax" to be different from what we conventionally know as a "Flat Tax."

Is the distinction here simply whether the tax is applied to income vs. expenditures?

Generally, when we think of a sales tax we think of the tax which is collected at the cash register when we are buying car parts, Hawaiian shirts or personal lubricant. A similar tax is also collected directly by the state when we initially register a car which we have just purchased.

Would a "Fair Tax" be collected in the same manner?

Would it apply to purchase of capital goods by a corporation?

Would it apply to the purchase of real estate by an individual?

Would it apply to the purchase of investment instruments such as bonds or securities?

Would it apply only to purchases made within the US, or would it also extend (in a manner similar to state Use Tax) to purchases made by Americans directly from non-American suppliers? In other words, when I purchase a custom-made $800 lithium battery from a British citizen living in China (this is a real example), how would this situation be handled?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Braineack View Post
i dont trust anything with the word fair in it.

because god forbid things are really fair over in the EU VAT countries.

I would only be for the "fair" tax if congress added an amendment that said income tax was then illegal. I dont want to pay VAT + income tax and since we all know we should trust our gov't worth a lick, they will abuse it to pay for "jobs creation".


where jobs creation = lining pockets.
Read the book or even some of the amazon reviews. The books goes into far more detail than I care to in a post and I cannot sufficiently cover these points without going into detail.
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Old 03-21-2013, 12:25 AM   #4067
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Originally Posted by Ryan_G View Post
Read the book or even some of the amazon reviews.
I'm hoping that you can convey some semblance of what you are trying to convey here in your own words, to spare us the week-long pause in the conversation while I pretend to order the book and read it.
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Old 03-21-2013, 11:07 AM   #4068
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Dont you hate it when you go to Israel to give a speech on how Israel and Palestine should be BFF and gay partners, then they start lobbing rockets at each other?
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Old 03-21-2013, 12:47 PM   #4069
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But seriously...

I don't know much about the organization of the Palestinian state or its military. Here in the US, or in pretty much any other western nation, we pretty much assume that the government is in control of the military, and the military is in control of its weapons. So if a Tomahawk cruise missile gets fired at somebody, it's a pretty safe bet that this action was sanctioned by the government of the US or Britain, and carried out by one of those two respective militaries via the proper chain of command.

Is it accurate to make the same assumptions here?

In other words, are the weapons in question actually under the control of loyal, disciplined soldiers acting under a proper chain of command, such that we can infer their use to accurately represent the will of the Palestinian government?
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Old 03-21-2013, 12:53 PM   #4070
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Joe, put yourself in their shoes - look at the world through their eyes. It is not fair that a Palestinian child cannot grow up in a state of her own, and lives with the presence of a foreign army that controls the movements of her parents every single day.
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Old 03-21-2013, 01:05 PM   #4071
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe Perez View Post
I infer from context that you consider a "Fair Tax" to be different from what we conventionally know as a "Flat Tax."

Is the distinction here simply whether the tax is applied to income vs. expenditures?

Yes

Generally, when we think of a sales tax we think of the tax which is collected at the cash register when we are buying car parts, Hawaiian shirts or personal lubricant. A similar tax is also collected directly by the state when we initially register a car which we have just purchased.

Would a "Fair Tax" be collected in the same manner?

Yes.

Would it apply to purchase of capital goods by a corporation?

Yes

Would it apply to the purchase of real estate by an individual?

Yes

Would it apply to the purchase of investment instruments such as bonds or securities?

I am cannot remember if this was covered in the book or not so I am not sure. I would think not because I wouldn't really consider that the consumption of a product/service but more of a transformation of funds. I know that line of reasoning is open to interpretation but that is just my thought.

Would it apply only to purchases made within the US, or would it also extend (in a manner similar to state Use Tax) to purchases made by Americans directly from non-American suppliers? In other words, when I purchase a custom-made $800 lithium battery from a British citizen living in China (this is a real example), how would this situation be handled?
This I am also unsure of but I would guess that there would be a tax here.

EDIT: Before anyone say this would effect people with lower incomes disproportionally, this is dealt with in the book. There would be credit given in the form of a check or deposit each month by the government to everyone/family that is calculated based on a metric similar to the poverty line. This credit would be used to offset the tax that you pay at the cash register.
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Old 03-21-2013, 01:09 PM   #4072
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In France they have a 75% [maximum] income tax rate PLUS a 19.6% "Fair" Tax.

We should be more "fair" like France, that way everyone but the people in power will be poor and easier to control.
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Old 03-21-2013, 01:17 PM   #4073
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Joe, put yourself in their shoes - look at the world through their eyes.
That's precisely what I'm attempting to do- gain perspective.

It was a serious question. I have never visited Palestine, I have no concept of how their military forces are organized and controlled, etc.

I am questioning whether we (the western world) may be attributing to a government actions which are perhaps better characterized as unsanctioned guerrilla / revolutionary warfare.


Consider the Soviet Union. We, as Americans, spent most of the period of the 1960s-1980s afraid that those crazy Russians were going to start WWIII. But as it turns out, the Soviet government was not, in fact, crazy (most people aren't.) Add to that the fact that the military in the Soviet union was disciplined and loyal to the government, and we enjoyed a period of relative peace, in which nobody fired ICBMs at anybody.

So now we have a little country out of which, from time to time, short-range rockets tend to be fired at its neighbor. Is it likely that these attacks are being ordered by the government? Wouldn't that make the government crazy? Or is it more likely that the government is not fully in control of all of its armaments and the men who guard the,?
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Old 03-21-2013, 01:23 PM   #4074
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you missed the joke, I just quoted obama.

to me, outside of VA is forgien policy, and im very apathetic to forgien policy.
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Old 03-21-2013, 01:25 PM   #4075
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe Perez View Post
That's precisely what I'm attempting to do- gain perspective.

It was a serious question. I have never visited Palestine, I have no concept of how their military forces are organized and controlled, etc.

I am questioning whether we (the western world) may be attributing to a government actions which are perhaps better characterized as unsanctioned guerrilla / revolutionary warfare.


Consider the Soviet Union. We, as Americans, spent most of the period of the 1960s-1980s afraid that those crazy Russians were going to start WWIII. But as it turns out, the Soviet government was not, in fact, crazy (most people aren't.) Add to that the fact that the military in the Soviet union was disciplined and loyal to the government, and we enjoyed a period of relative peace, in which nobody fired ICBMs at anybody.

So now we have a little country out of which, from time to time, short-range rockets tend to be fired at its neighbor. Is it likely that these attacks are being ordered by the government? Wouldn't that make the government crazy? Or is it more likely that the government is not fully in control of all of its armaments and the men who guard the,?
My opinion, based on the kind of rhetoric used by governement officials, is that the government has complete control and just really wants to destroy Isreal. They are filled with hate toward the Jewish state and will do whatever they feel is necessary to wipe it off the face of the earth. The problem is when Israel comes in and curb stomps them they cry innocent or that they were merely retaliating against Isreal's aggression. It is all bullshit and I cannot wait until Israel's deadline for diplomatic solutions to Iran's nuclear program runs out and they start ******* people up. They may be surrounded but their military is vastly superior and would have support from the United States if **** got real.

I also admit that it is possible that they may not have complete control of their military and weapons but I really don't think that should diminish their responsibility over attacks that are executed with use of their resources. Maybe if it was a one time thing but there is a pattern here and they should be held accountable.

EDIT: While I said I cannot wait for the deadline to pass that does not mean I don't want a diplomatic solution. I just know this is not going to happen so I look forward to the day that someone finally takes the necessary steps to deal with the situation at hand.
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Old 03-21-2013, 02:08 PM   #4076
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I give up. Let's just get on with it...

PJ Media Why Not Just Put the Entire Federal Budget on Credit?
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Old 03-21-2013, 02:09 PM   #4077
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In France they have a 75% [maximum] income tax rate PLUS a 19.6% "Fair" Tax.

We should be more "fair" like France, that way everyone but the people in power will be poor and easier to control.
As far as I'm concerned, it's Democracy sliding towards Socialism when the overall tax burden gets above 50%. Yes, we're already there.
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Old 03-21-2013, 02:09 PM   #4078
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Why Not Just Put the Entire Federal Budget on Credit?
but why not?

it's all the same, collecting taxes is pointless and ill be a lot happier with my own personal bank account.
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Old 03-21-2013, 02:13 PM   #4079
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As far as I'm concerned, it's Democracy sliding towards Socialism when the overall tax burden gets above 50%. Yes, we're already there.
we have moved towards socialism for more than just our tax rates... When entitlements are a part of a budget called: mandatory spending, that's when you start scratching your head.


anways, my point was that if we move to a VAT, then we MUST first abolish the income tax. because then nothing stops us from abusing both to pay for our 100% efficient gov't that can't survive with a 2.7% budget cut.
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Old 03-21-2013, 02:13 PM   #4080
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but why not?

it's all the same, collecting taxes is pointless and ill be a lot happier with my own personal bank account.
EXACTLY!!! And when I go to my local Bank of Cyprus, I'll expect to see a nice healthy interest rate on my savings.
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