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Old 06-12-2016, 08:43 PM   #6081
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a ban on gay clubs? thats racist.
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Old 06-12-2016, 09:09 PM   #6082
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My first reaction on hearing the news was secretly hoping for rumors of an executive action so that I could sell my AR15 for a ridiculous profit.
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Old 06-12-2016, 09:23 PM   #6083
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Hmmm... gay people can't go out and have a good time without getting wasted and doing drugs... you said it. It's illegal to carry and consume alcohol in every state under all circumstances. Of the several states that do allow "bar carry", it's still illegal for a person carrying to consume. Considering that it's a well-known statistic that those with concealed carry licenses, as a group, are one of the most law-abiding classes of people there are, it seems to me that allowing "law-abiding-sober-permit-having-gay-people" to carry in a club can only be a good thing for collective self-defense. The classic argument that liberals and anti-gun cops make... "good guys won't be able to tell each-other apart" is complete horseshit and has been proven false in almost every real-world example where it's happened. Ie, where multiple good-guys who did not know eachother prior to a random incident didn't shoot eachother when simultaneously engaging a bad guy.
In Michigan you can legally carry and have a .02 BAC (or one drink).

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but most of them are good, like that black boxer guy with Michael J. Fox disease.
The draft dodger? Not sure i know anyone who liked that guy...
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Old 06-13-2016, 01:13 AM   #6084
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At no point in his post did he mention gays.
I can't believe you took the time to type that. Trust me, Joe will come up with something way better than "I know you are, but what am I" when he fires back.

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Congrats, you can use Google. If "anecdotal", why post? Hoping somebody would become reflective and conclude that all CC'ers must be morons no matter how law-abiding they are? You could have backed it up with a thought. I have a few more good case studies on how CC'ers have fucked it away if you'd like.

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"Almost every" doesn't help when you get shot in the head by a "good guy with a gun": Texas ?good guy with a gun? shoots carjacking victim in head ? then runs away
You reached too far. That incident doesn't remotely resemble what I was talking about. Good guy accidentally hits a victim while shooting at bad guys in the act of victimizing him... not the same as a good guy mistaking another good guy as a bad guy because he's "got a gun", which is the primary argument of current military leadership in keeping us unarmed on bases. Military bases are "gun-free" zones just like schools and theaters and churches... we have to get shot at for a long time before the police arrive to save us.
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Old 06-13-2016, 01:34 AM   #6085
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In Michigan you can legally carry and have a .02 BAC (or one drink).
Looks like legal carry up to .019...Robitusson? But when you hit .02-.08 it's a $100 fine and you lose your permit for a year. It would be interesting to know the politics behind how that got written. Nobody thought that up from scratch... had to be some give and take over something.

THIS APPLIES TO CARRY IN GENERAL:
Michigan Legislature - Section 750.237
(1) An individual shall not carry, have in possession or under control, or use in any manner or discharge a firearm under any of the following circumstances:
(a) The individual is under the influence of alcoholic liquor, a controlled substance, or a combination of alcoholic liquor and a controlled substance.

BUT THIS APPLIES TO THOSE WITH CC LICENSES:
Michigan Legislature - Section 28.425k
(2) An individual shall not carry a concealed pistol or portable device that uses electro-muscular disruption technology while he or she is under the influence of alcoholic liquor or a controlled substance or while having a bodily alcohol content prohibited under this section. An individual who violates this section is responsible for a state civil infraction or guilty of a crime as follows:
(c) If the person had a bodily alcohol content of .02 or more but less than .08 grams per 100 milliliters of blood, per 210 liters of breath, or per 67 milliliters of urine, the individual is responsible for a state civil infraction and shall be fined $100.00. The peace officer shall notify the department of state police of a civil infraction under this subdivision. The department of state police shall notify the county clerk in the county in which the individual was issued the license, who shall suspend the license for 1 year. The department of state police shall immediately enter that suspension into the law enforcement information network.
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Old 06-13-2016, 10:22 AM   #6086
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/\ It is what it is. This is why the bouncers or bartenders should have had weapons of their own.
You mean like the off-duty cop who was there providing security who was armed and the first to engage the shooter?
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Old 06-13-2016, 11:09 AM   #6087
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I can't believe you took the time to type that. Trust me, Joe will come up with something way better than "I know you are, but what am I" when he fires back.
I am rubber, you are glue.


In all seriousness, though, it's reasonable to draw a few broad generalizations about night-club people in general. Regardless of sexual orientation / gender identity, as compared to the statistical average of the population, they are more likely to be:
  • Young
  • Intoxicated


So, with regard to Brain's original hypothesis that "Arming yourself makes sense, relying on untrained idiots who failed out of HS does not," I merely posit that the number of fatalities / year would likely increase, rather than decrease, if most of the young drunks who are partying at 2am in the various downtown clubs across the country were all carrying. It's not an environment which is conducive to rational decision-making processes such as "Well, I suppose I could use violence to settle this minor dispute which has arisen out of the manner in which you have impugned the character of my girlfriend, however it's likely that I would be killed as a result, given that everyone here is carrying a gun and is obviously not sober enough to exercise sound judgement."


This really applies to all venues in which the service and consumption of alcohol and / or other mind-altering chemicals is a primary activity. There have been some really interesting shootings at bars over the years. Not "mass shootings" in the sense of a single killer, more like gunfights in which everyone got off a round or two and nobody was left standing. Hollywood-level stuff.
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Old 06-13-2016, 11:15 AM   #6088
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I wish there was a cooling off period for politicizing tragedy. If you don't like guns, you are going to blame guns. If you don't like (simplifying) muslims you will blame muslims. Everyone sees the tragedy through their own prism and it is never the full picture. It's like the stereotypical grieving mother after her kid get's killed by the police for waving a gun at the cops. "He was such a good boy, he was turning his life around." We see what we want to see because we don't want to confront the truth.

Also, kudos to the off-duty cop who engaged the shooter. I wonder/hope he saved a bunch of lives. Aside from complete disarmament I don't see a good solution that would prevent such an horrific event from happening again, and even if you did, it would just switch to bombs.

This is going to sound like a really ******* statement but I feel like I can say it here: Freedom is dangerous. Sometimes in order to have freedom of press, freedom of religion, freedom of speech, and freedom to arm ourselves, it will mean that people will be injured or killed as a result. How many people have died or will die because of fear of immunization? How many will die because they don't believe in using modern medicine to save their own lives or the lives of their kids? I know it's a really unpopular statement but I think it IS worth some lives to keep those freedoms. I hope that is not my life or the lives of my loved ones but at the same time, we can never be truly 100% safe unless we are living in a cage.

In the end, I'd rather live in a society that has those freedoms.
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Old 06-13-2016, 11:21 AM   #6089
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If you don't like (simplifying) muslims you will blame muslims.
Very true.

It's interesting that you say this, actually. I didn't hear about this until the following day, after the shooter's name & religion were public knowledge. And the first thought which went through my head wasn't anything to do with Islam, it was simply "Someone shot up a gay club in the middle of one of the more redneck states. No surprises there."


But yeah, life is dangerous. Unfortunately, we live in an era in which we've become hyper-sensitized to risk, and consider it a foregone conclusion that it is the primary responsibility of all government not to preserve liberty but to ameliorate risk.
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Old 06-13-2016, 11:26 AM   #6090
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except that my hypothesis is simply status-quo. there's nothing really stopping people from bringing guns into clubs and shooting up the place, yet it rarely happens. and Tupac and Biggie were always nice enough to wait until they were outside of clubs before they started fighting/shooting.
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Old 06-13-2016, 11:34 AM   #6091
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It's illegal to carry and consume alcohol in every state under all circumstances. Of the several states that do allow "bar carry", it's still illegal for a person carrying to consume.
This is a random side conversation.

Did they change the laws in VA for open carry and drinking at a bar. Last time I checked in 2010 it was perfectly legal to open carry and have a beer at the bar. Getting drunk was illegal, or conceal carrying and having a beer was illegal. I believe the limit was still .08BAC for OC and drinking. I know for a fact I have been around OC groups who have had a drink at a bar in Fairfax County without any issues. There were cops around and none of them had any issues, or said anything about the beer and the holstered firearm. I am not condoning having any alcohol and carrying a firearm, just that at least at one point it was legal.
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Old 06-13-2016, 12:49 PM   #6092
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"No tragedy is so great that its victims cannot be stood upon as a platform for political rhetoric."
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Old 06-13-2016, 12:58 PM   #6093
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"No tragedy is so great that its victims cannot be stood upon as a platform for political rhetoric."


" it was Democrat President Lyndon Baines Johnson who stated, “I’ll have those ******* voting Democratic for the next 200 years” as he confided with two like-minded governors on Air Force One regarding his underlying intentions for the “Great Society” programs."
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Old 06-13-2016, 02:15 PM   #6094
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Originally Posted by Chiburbian View Post
This is going to sound like a really ******* statement but I feel like I can say it here: Freedom is dangerous. Sometimes in order to have freedom of press, freedom of religion, freedom of speech, and freedom to arm ourselves, it will mean that people will be injured or killed as a result. How many people have died or will die because of fear of immunization? How many will die because they don't believe in using modern medicine to save their own lives or the lives of their kids? I know it's a really unpopular statement but I think it IS worth some lives to keep those freedoms. I hope that is not my life or the lives of my loved ones but at the same time, we can never be truly 100% safe unless we are living in a cage.

In the end, I'd rather live in a society that has those freedoms.
Well said. Freedom is dangerous, but worth it.
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Old 06-13-2016, 03:09 PM   #6095
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Can't I have muslims, gays, AND guns?

Dropped our 5.5 month old off at a house full of muslims this morning. Right in the middle of Ramadan even. The son of the hijab-wearing woman who takes care of him wears long robes, a pillbox hat, and has a giant beard. He's often there playing with our son.

You ban them, I have to find new daycare.
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Old 06-13-2016, 03:28 PM   #6096
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Originally Posted by shuiend View Post
This is a random side conversation.

Did they change the laws in VA for open carry and drinking at a bar. Last time I checked in 2010 it was perfectly legal to open carry and have a beer at the bar. Getting drunk was illegal, or conceal carrying and having a beer was illegal. I believe the limit was still .08BAC for OC and drinking. I know for a fact I have been around OC groups who have had a drink at a bar in Fairfax County without any issues. There were cops around and none of them had any issues, or said anything about the beer and the holstered firearm. I am not condoning having any alcohol and carrying a firearm, just that at least at one point it was legal.
Hmmm... I'm learning all sorts of new stuff today.

From Wikipedia on VA Firearms law:
"Consuming an alcoholic beverage in ABC on-premises licensed restaurants and clubs, while carrying a concealed handgun, is prohibited; nor may any person carry a concealed handgun in a public place while under the influence of alcohol or illegal drugs. Any person permitted to carry a concealed firearm may not carry one in such manner in a public place while intoxicated. Possession of a firearm can compound the penalty for various other offenses, including illegal drug possession. Open carry while intoxicated is not addressed in the law and can presumed to be legal unless otherwise specified."

STATUTE:
Prohibited Conduct and Where Unlawful to Carry - Section 18.2-308.012

Any person permitted to carry a concealed handgun who is under the influence of alcohol or illegal drugs while carrying such handgun in a public place is guilty of a Class 1 misdemeanor. Conviction of any of the following offenses shall be prima facie evidence, subject to rebuttal, that the person is "under the influence" for purposes of this section: manslaughter in violation of Section 18.2-36.1, maiming in violation of Section 18.2-51.4, driving while intoxicated in violation of Section 18.2-266, public intoxication in violation of Section 18.2-388, or driving while intoxicated in violation of Section 46.2-341.24.

No person who carries a concealed handgun onto the premises of any restaurant or club as defined in Section 4.1-100 for which a license to sell and serve alcoholic beverages for on-premises consumption has been granted by the Virginia Alcoholic Beverage Control Board under Title 4.1 of the Code of Virginia; may consume an alcoholic beverage while on the premises. A person who carries a concealed handgun onto the premises of such a restaurant or club and consumes alcoholic beverages is guilty of a Class 2 misdemeanor. However, nothing in this subsection shall apply to a federal, state, or local law-enforcement officer.


Looks like again, we have the absence of legislation that makes something legal under certain circumstances. It would appear that it's legal to OC and drink. Being drunk in public is illegal regardless of your carry status, so technically it's illegal to be drunk and OC in same sense that it's illegal to be drunk and wear shoes. I've lived here 3 years now and see OC about once a week in the city. I don't go to bars, so I can't comment on the prevalence of carry in those places, but I'll go out on a limb and say staff will ask you to conceal or leave in most urban places. Maybe a local in a rural bar can get away with OC and a beer, but not at the Oceanfront or down at Waterside.
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Old 06-13-2016, 03:35 PM   #6097
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Can't I have muslims, gays, AND guns?

Dropped our 5.5 month old off at a house full of muslims this morning. Right in the middle of Ramadan even. The son of the hijab-wearing woman who takes care of him wears long robes, a pillbox hat, and has a giant beard. He's often there playing with our son.

You ban them, I have to find new daycare.
a Muslim (assumed) did my security bomb check in Heathrow. very ironic.
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Old 06-13-2016, 03:42 PM   #6098
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Thank you, it's a Perez original. I like to think of it being said by a politician who is actually shocked by the notion that there are some events which are so sacred / sacrosanct that they should not be exploited for political gains.

He finds this idea every bit as offensive as if a person had suggested to him that those powers not expressly delegated to the government are reserved to the people.
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Old 06-13-2016, 05:23 PM   #6099
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Originally Posted by y8s View Post
Can't I have muslims, gays, AND guns?

Dropped our 5.5 month old off at a house full of muslims this morning. Right in the middle of Ramadan even. The son of the hijab-wearing woman who takes care of him wears long robes, a pillbox hat, and has a giant beard. He's often there playing with our son.

You ban them, I have to find new daycare.
We have entire communities here that have nothing but Arabic writing on all the buildings.
Don't ban Muslims because then i'll have to start preparing my own shawarmas.
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Old 06-13-2016, 06:11 PM   #6100
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I wish Perez was not so prejudice against nuckle dragging, slack jawed rednecks.
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