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Old 07-07-2016, 12:34 AM   #6261
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Originally Posted by bahurd View Post
. Sure lots of blame to go around but frankly it originated with 2 individuals.
Citation?
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Old 07-07-2016, 12:41 AM   #6262
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All I can say is BS. China, Russia, Israel, Saudi Arabia, France, England...they back-stopped what our own intelligence said. It would be really nice if the leftist "Bush Lied" puzzle piece fit, but the problem is that the rest of the world--and the Left--thought Saddam was pursuing WMD's.


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Oh, do you mean to imply the Dems had their own separate intelligence or were they just mouthing the same old bs the admistration was pushing to them. Sure lots of blame to go around but frankly it originated with 2 individuals.

There was no doubt after the 1st gulf war Sadam had (already did) develop a viable chemical program and used it on his own people. Not in dispute. If you also go do some research it was well accepted he had no nuclear program. So, the WMD scare was bullshit, a lie, cost several thousand dead and many more thousands wounded for the remainder of their days.

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Old 07-07-2016, 09:15 AM   #6263
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Sure lots of blame to go around but frankly, in my opinion, it originated with 2 individuals; Bush & Cheney.
Here, FTFY...

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From about the most leftist place I can provide: Lie by Lie: A Timeline of How We Got Into Iraq | Mother Jones.
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Old 07-07-2016, 09:37 AM   #6264
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Originally Posted by cordycord View Post
All I can say is BS. China, Russia, Israel, Saudi Arabia, France, England...they back-stopped what our own intelligence said. It would be really nice if the leftist "Bush Lied" puzzle piece fit, but the problem is that the rest of the world--and the Left--thought Saddam was pursuing WMD's.
I guess it's beyond comprehension that someone in politics can lie huh or... at least be guilty of gross negligence.

We've spent millions of dollars finding a way to pin the blame for the deaths of 4 Americans on a woman because of her name yet can't be bothered to publicly undergo a root cause analysis of a war that is pretty much accepted, today anyway, as a mistake. This war has killed hundreds of thousands and wounded far more. Like I said in an earlier post, at least the British have a set of ***** and decided to find out the truth.
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Old 07-07-2016, 10:07 AM   #6265
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H.J.Res.114 - Authorization for Use of Military Force Against Iraq Resolution of 2002
  • 215 (96.4%) of 223 Republican Representatives voted for the resolution.
  • 82 (39.2%) of 209 Democratic Representatives voted for the resolution.
  • 58% of Democratic senators (29 of 50) voted for the resolution.
  • 1 (2%) of 49 Republican senators voted against the resolution
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Old 07-07-2016, 10:15 AM   #6266
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Political/Current Events Random, Pics, and Videos Thread-george_w_bush_miss_me_yet_bumper_sticker-rb47d807fcbab47c4a6e30f2b785f3076_v9wht_8byvr_324.jpgYup!
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Old 07-07-2016, 10:21 AM   #6267
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Originally Posted by bahurd View Post
We've spent millions of dollars finding a way to pin the blame for the deaths of 4 Americans on a woman because of her name yet can't be bothered to publicly undergo a root cause analysis of a war that is pretty much accepted, today anyway, as a mistake.
She lied and conspired behind a closed door to purposefully deceive the American Public about our enemies to help win an election. It had nothing to do with her name; it had everything to do with her actions (or lack there of). She was completely ill-prepared to handle the situation, then tried to play cover up in political theater. All we wanted to know was what happened, and she lied about it and it was an obvious lie.

Had she simple told the American Public the truth about the events, instead of trying to sweep her Muslim agenda under the rug, there would have been no need for such waste of time/money/effort. AND she wouldn't be in this huge email mess right now...
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Old 07-07-2016, 11:05 AM   #6268
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Originally Posted by Braineack View Post
She lied and conspired behind a closed door to purposefully deceive the American Public about our enemies to help win an election.
Cool story...

Related to my previous post, though I doubt many will actually bother to read it: Emails reveal Tony Blair's deal with George Bush over Iraq war was forged before invasion started | Daily Mail Online

And with that, gave a great day!
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Old 07-07-2016, 11:16 AM   #6269
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I'm failing to see your point...


but, have a wonderful bitter jealous day to yourself as well.
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Old 07-07-2016, 01:24 PM   #6270
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I never realized Congress isn't held to the same email standards as the administration. I'm jealous...
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Old 07-07-2016, 01:27 PM   #6271
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speaking of email standards:
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Old 07-07-2016, 08:29 PM   #6272
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Old 07-07-2016, 09:03 PM   #6273
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For the record, Bush was the first leader in recorded history to be able to claim that his military successfully pacified Iraqistan.

Well, he would have been. We had achieved total victory, the only thing we had left to do was to maintain a strong presence for a generation until a security force could be built and trained.

Then Obama went and did the absolute dumbest **** he could have possibly done regarding Iraqistan - he effectively removed security from both countries overnight.

What do you suppose happens to a country/region with an incredibly weak government and no security?

Gangs > Organized Crime > Cartels > ....

ISIS.

That's right, I said it, Obama single-handedly created ISIS - and (with the help of one Edward Snowden), sparked a whole "arab spring" of violence, attempted genocide, and mass immigration.

I take offense when someone suggests that "Bush's war" was a failure. I read the reports from the field daily, and in the ~12 months leading up to the pullout, massive regions of Iraq and Afghanistan were seeing obscene levels of peace, happiness, and prosperity.
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Old 07-07-2016, 09:30 PM   #6274
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For the record, Bush was the first leader in recorded history to be able to claim that his military successfully pacified Iraqistan.

Well, he would have been. We had achieved total victory, the only thing we had left to do was to maintain a strong presence for a generation until a security force could be built and trained.

Then Obama went and did the absolute dumbest **** he could have possibly done regarding Iraqistan - he effectively removed security from both countries overnight.
Obama carried out an agreement signed by GWB: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/U.S.%E...rces_Agreement

(Please respond to my Trump post on the last page)
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Old 07-07-2016, 09:48 PM   #6275
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Obama carried out an agreement signed by GWB: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/U.S.%E...rces_Agreement

(Please respond to my Trump post on the last page)
Not exactly. Bush's agreement was essentially a default pending an updated status of forces agreement.
It isn't generally a good thing for occupying troops to be able to be tried in the occupied country's court system.
It was never intended to be the end game.
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Old 07-07-2016, 09:59 PM   #6276
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Not exactly. Bush's agreement was essentially a default pending an updated status of forces agreement.
It isn't generally a good thing for occupying troops to be able to be tried in the occupied country's court system.
It was never intended to be the end game.
Negotiations broke down due to that exact point (not having immunity from prosecution for soldiers) and the previous agreement became the end game. I really don't see what Obama was supposed to do in that situation.
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Old 07-08-2016, 09:57 AM   #6277
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Then Obama went and did the absolute dumbest **** he could have possibly done regarding Iraqistan - he effectively removed security from both countries overnight.
This also effectively removed all DOD from HTPs and left DOS to provide their own security.
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Old 07-08-2016, 10:20 PM   #6278
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I liked this piece.

The Uncomfortable Reason Why it Came to This in Dallas Yesterday | RedState

Quote:
Let me say this right off the bat: I don't at all condone any shooting of police officers or attacking them in any way. I hope that the people responsible are caught and punished to the fullest extent of the law - which, given that the attacks appear to have been premeditated and directed at law enforcement, means the death penalty. I assume, given that these idiots chose to perpetrate their crime in Texas, that this is exactly what will happen.

Fine. Good, even.

Now let's take a step back and look at the forces that would drive someone to do something like this yesterday. Here's the reality that we don't often talk about - that societies are held together less by laws and force and threats of force than we are by ethereal and fragile concepts like mutual respect and belief in the justness of the system itself.

In America, there are 376 police officers per 100,000 citizens - or one police officer per every 266 citizens. Stop and think about that. Could every police officer in America maintain order over 266 unruly people who had no respect for him him or the badge he wields? Absolutely not. The only thing that makes the situation even a little bit tenable is that the vast majority of people never think about confronting or challenging a police officer, and instead get up each day with the commitment to live their lives peacefully and lawfully, because they believe a) that they live in a society that is basically just and b) they believe that the few policemen who do exist will be there to protect them if something goes wrong and c) they have faith, by and large, that if someone commits a crime against them, they will be caught and punished.

Think, though, about what happens when these invisible bonds that are the most important part of maintaining law and order begin to dissolve - especially within a given subcommunity. Perception is, quite often, more important than reality. We are, in addition, creatures of our upbringing. The way our parents raise us to think about people and institutions shapes us to degrees that we often can't or won't acknowledge.

As the child of white parents who grew up in the rural panhandle of Texas, I was taught that police were there to help, any time I had a problem I should go to them. I should always follow their orders and show them the utmost respect. No one is more important and helpful to your community than the police.

Now imagine, for a minute, that your parents instead grew up as black people in the 50s or 60s in one of the many areas where police were often the agents of - let's call it what it was - white oppression. How might that have changed, for understandable reasons, the way not only those people but also their children and their children's children interact with the police? More importantly, how might it impact the belief that police will ever be held accountable for abuses of their power?

I think the evidence would show that the vast majority of police do their jobs with the greatest professionalism possible. I don't think that's a sufficient answer to the reality of lingering mistrust between police and minority communities, especially in certain areas of the country. And the proliferation of cell phone video recording has really confirmed (in their minds) something they have long anecdotally believed or been taught - that police often interact with minority communities in different ways than they do with the white community.

And here's the most important part: when they do so, they never or almost never face punishment.

Look, I don't know. I don't want to rush to judgment on either the Baton Rouge shooting or the Falcon Heights shooting, but based upon what we have seen, they look bad. Very bad. They look, at least at first glance, to confirm a lot of biases that people have. They look like a scenario that has played out all too often that the white community either doesn't believe ever happens (or at least believes is at most a freak occurrence) and minority communities believe is a systemic occurrence. And they look, most importantly, like many other scenarios in which officers have skated either scot free or with a slap on their wrist.

And here is the important point and the point I have been trying to make with this excessively wordy post. The most important safety valve to prevent violence like we saw in Dallas last night is the belief that when officers do go off the rails, the legal system will punish them accordingly. If minority communities (and everyone else, for that matter) believed that, resort to reprisal killings would be either non existent or far less frequent.

But they don't, and there's good reason for that. And that is because a huge, overwhelming segment of America does not really give a damn what cops do in the course of maintaining order because they assume (probably correctly) that abuse at the hands of police will never happen to them. As long as the cops keep people away from my door, they have my blessing handling "the thugs" in whatever way they see fit.

I see the attitude all the time even in the comments to the stories I write here at RedState. I'll post about some story or video where someone did something to break the law and thus found themselves in contact with the police. Fine. During the course of interaction with the police, however, the police drastically escalate the confrontation using what I think any reasonable person should consider to be wildly excessive force in bringing the situation to heel, and someone ends up either seriously injured or dead. Very often, the victim of this escalation is black.

Every time I post these stories, I get a flood of comments from people who look for even the smallest hook on which to hang an excuse for the cops. "Well, he was rude and confrontational to the cop." "Well, when the officer was trying to arrest him, he ran." "He was 'resisting arrest.'" (My personal favorite, which was used by several dozen people I talked to regarding Eric Garner, whose "resisting arrest" consisted entirely of turning his back to a cop and putting his hands in the air.)

Look, this is not how a free society works. Being rude/disrespectful to a cop, running from a cop, demanding in a hostile tone to know why a cop has pulled you over might well be contraindicated to the peaceful continuation of your day, but they are not an excuse for someone getting shot. I'm for the death penalty, but the kind that is carried out after, you know, a trial and some appeals - not the kind that is carried out on the spot by a cop who's had his authority challenged in some non life-threatening way.

These excuses, though, are indicative of an abdication of critical thinking about the legal and proper application of police force that really and truly is endemic in America. Prosecutors are often guilty of it when deciding whether to indict officers for excessive force. More often, they know that jury members will be extremely guilty of it if they decide to bring charges at all, which makes the whole exercise not worth their time.

Here's all you need to know: since 2000, NYPD officers have shot and killed about 180 people. Only 3 of those officers was even indicted for anything and only 1 was convicted, for a non-jail time offense. And these statistics are fairly typical of the nation at large.

Reasonable people can disagree about the prevalence of police brutality in America, and the extent to which race plays a factor in it. I don't think reasonable people can disagree that excessive police force is punished way less often than it actually happens. And that's the kind of problem that leads to people taking up guns and committing acts of violence - tragically (and with evil intent) against cops who as far as we know have done nothing wrong.

But people's willingness to act rationally and within the confines of the law and the political system is generally speaking directly proportional to their belief that the law and political system will ever punish wrongdoing. And right now, that belief is largely broken, especially in many minority communities.

And it's the blind, uncritical belief that the police never (or only in freak circumstances) do anything wrong that is a major contributing factor to that.

It's at least as much of a factor, if not more so, than the blind, uncritical belief that the police always do things wrong - which many conservatives today are blaming in entirety for what happened in Dallas.

The truth, as always, lies somewhere in the middle, but acknowledging that requires looking in the mirror in a way that makes us all a little uncomfortable.
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Old 07-09-2016, 10:38 AM   #6279
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Old 07-09-2016, 11:01 AM   #6280
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