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Old 01-04-2012, 10:10 AM   #781
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Originally Posted by blaen99 View Post
However, how do you propose to get people to take more responsibility? This is the problem I see with the "more responsibility" line. Government intervention to try to get people to take more responsibility sounds like a Brainying rant from Brainy.
Easy. Take away the option for someone else to be forced to take responsibility for them; that means no gov't intervention. Your default fix for everything is going to the gov't, so I can understand why you'd think that more gov't is required; it's ingrained in your blood, and I don't fault you for it.


I await your strawman reply.


G1: We need people to take more responsiblity for themselves, what can we do?
G2: Hey, let's start the OPR (Office of Personal Responsibility) funded by the taxpayer, to employ worthless pencil pushers that come up with cool new ways that people don't have to think for themselves and point out all the loop holes they can use to make their lives easier by living off the govt's programs.

Last edited by Braineack; 01-04-2012 at 10:46 AM. Reason: spelling
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Old 01-04-2012, 10:44 AM   #782
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G1: We need people to take more responsiblity for themselves, what can we do?
G2: Hey, let's start the OPR (Office of Personal Responsibility) funded by the taxpayer, to employ worthless pencil pushers that come up with cool new ways that people don't have to think for themselves and point out all the loop holes they can use to make their lives easier by living off the govt's programs.
Perfect!
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Old 01-04-2012, 11:17 AM   #783
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Yep, you'll note that I kept my argument to the top 400 where there is definite numbers for - or, more directly, the large amount of loopholes that only the very richest can make use of.
What you have in your top 400 taxpayers is a straw man fallacy. Those will not be individuals but small corporations (sole proprietorships, or S-corps) being taxed as individuals. And being corporations they have operating expenses that can be claimed as tax deductions, thereby lowering their tax rate percentages. We have been over this again and again.

I do wish the class warfare proponents would stop grandstanding this misrepresentation or that the tax code would be changed to separate corporations from the income tax on individuals. The leading proponents of class warfare are well aware of this misrepresentation when they present it, but they are typically of the opinion that the ends justify the means. And their minions will not ever question what they are told as long as it fits their existing worldview.

I encourage you to search this out for yourself and not simply take my word for it, because knowledge is power and understanding is liberation.
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Old 01-04-2012, 11:46 AM   #784
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didn't i post this here:

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Forbes 400 list of richest Americans–their combined $1.5 trillion of wealth would barely cover the forthcoming $1.2 trillion debt-ceiling increase.
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Old 01-04-2012, 12:11 PM   #785
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Originally Posted by sixshooter View Post
What you have in your top 400 taxpayers is a straw man fallacy. Those will not be individuals but small corporations (sole proprietorships, or S-corps) being taxed as individuals. And being corporations they have operating expenses that can be claimed as tax deductions, thereby lowering their tax rate percentages. We have been over this again and again.
Can you verify this with any kind of primary source? I can certainly believe that there are a number of small business owners on that list and I can also believe that you have some single events which inflate some incomes on a one-time basis (for example, someone sells a business or takes huge profits in an investment).

Actually - on further investigation it looks like the top 400 income earners averaged well over $300 [edit: $30] million in AGI. They also make up such a miniscule number of households (it's technically the top 400 tax returns with the highest AGI so it can include dual income households) that I wonder how useful it is to even discuss...

Last edited by Scrappy Jack; 01-04-2012 at 12:33 PM. Reason: corrected typo
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Old 01-04-2012, 12:27 PM   #786
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misread, misposted.

Last edited by Braineack; 01-04-2012 at 01:04 PM.
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Old 01-04-2012, 12:51 PM   #787
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Originally Posted by Braineack View Post
Comeon sixshooter. You know that's not accurate.

#1 is Bill Gates, #2 is Warren Buffet.
You listed net worth rankings, not adjusted gross income (AGI) earners. I would not be surprised at all if there is a lot of overlap, but from what I am seeing from the actual 2008 IRS tax documents, most of the top 400 earned about 20% of their AGI from net partnership and S-corp income. That's obviously much more than the average tax filer (since the average tax filer does not own a business).

Net business income (schedules C and F) was less than 1%. Dividends and taxable interest combined were about 15%.

However, as I suspected, the majority (50%+) of the income comes from "Capital gains subject to preferential rates" (aka long term capital gains). To me, that is the sale of property like commercial or residential real estate, a business, shares of stock in a business or other investments. Generally, I would expect that a majority of the people on the Top 400 list are only ever on there once.*


Amazingly, to me, 17% of the Top 400 tax filers by AGI in 2008 did qualify for the under 15% tax bracket. That is down significantly from previous years (as high as 65% in 1999). Those people would qualify for the LTCG tax break up to the point they got pushed out of the 15% marginal bracket.

About 60% of the filers were in the 35%+ bracket.


*Aha! Found it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by IRS document on top 400 tax filers by AGI
Over the 17 tax years a total of 6,800 returns were identified for the table. There were 3,672 different taxpayers representing the top 400 returns of each year. Of these taxpayers, a little more than 27 percent appear more than once and slightly more than 15 percent appear more than twice (see columns 2 and 3). In any given year, on average, about 39 percent of the returns were filed by taxpayers that are not in any of the other 16 years (see columns 4 and 5). In each year, 4 (or 1.0 percent) of the returns are for taxpayers who can be found in all 17 years. Thus, the data shown in the table mostly represent a changing group of taxpayers over time, rather than a fixed group of taxpayers.
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Old 01-04-2012, 01:12 PM   #788
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Sorry, I thought we were commenting on a post I made a couple days ago. Nevermind me.
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Old 01-04-2012, 01:58 PM   #789
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Originally Posted by sixshooter View Post
What you have in your top 400 taxpayers is a straw man fallacy. Those will not be individuals but small corporations (sole proprietorships, or S-corps) being taxed as individuals. And being corporations they have operating expenses that can be claimed as tax deductions, thereby lowering their tax rate percentages. We have been over this again and again.

I do wish the class warfare proponents would stop grandstanding this misrepresentation or that the tax code would be changed to separate corporations from the income tax on individuals. The leading proponents of class warfare are well aware of this misrepresentation when they present it, but they are typically of the opinion that the ends justify the means. And their minions will not ever question what they are told as long as it fits their existing worldview.

I encourage you to search this out for yourself and not simply take my word for it, because knowledge is power and understanding is liberation.
http://www.irs.gov/taxstats/article/...203102,00.html

Quote:
This release contains four tables which contain information from the Top 400 Individual Income Tax Returns for each of Tax Years 1992 through 2008.
Quote:
The data in Tables 1–3 are based on the individual returns with the largest adjusted gross income reported each specific year shown and do not necessarily reflect the same taxpayers over the 17-year time period reflected.
Quote:
The “Top 400” would benefit very handsomely if business income were taxed at a lower rate than ordinary income. According to the IRS, these 400 individuals received nearly $17 billion in S corporation and partnership income in 2007 (the most recent year for which we have these data) — an average of $83 million apiece.
Lolwut, come again? Everything is very clear in that it is solely individual income, although some income is derived from s-corps.

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Originally Posted by Braineack View Post
Easy. Take away the option for someone else to be forced to take responsibility for them; that means no gov't intervention. Your default fix for everything is going to the gov't, so I can understand why you'd think that more gov't is required; it's ingrained in your blood, and I don't fault you for it.


I await your strawman reply.


G1: We need people to take more responsiblity for themselves, what can we do?
G2: Hey, let's start the OPR (Office of Personal Responsibility) funded by the taxpayer, to employ worthless pencil pushers that come up with cool new ways that people don't have to think for themselves and point out all the loop holes they can use to make their lives easier by living off the govt's programs.
I must admit, I laughed when I realized you intentionally strawmanned my argument, then asked for a strawman back. But that's not my thing unless it's unintentional Brainy.
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Old 01-04-2012, 02:00 PM   #790
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but if the govenment doesn't tell people what to do, how will they survive?! Do you want to kill people? Do you hate the poor that much?
ftfy.
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Old 01-04-2012, 02:09 PM   #791
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didn't i post this here:
Not the 400 I was referring to. That what you posted is talking about confiscating the entire net worth of those individuals and what it would add up to. The previous discussion was regarding ~18.5% taxes paid of the top 400 reporters' income. Two different discussions.
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Old 01-04-2012, 02:16 PM   #792
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Not the 400 I was referring to. That what you posted is talking about confiscating the entire net worth of those individuals and what it would add up to. The previous discussion was regarding ~18.5% taxes paid of the top 400 reporters' income. Two different discussions.

yeah, i already figured that out.
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Old 01-04-2012, 02:20 PM   #793
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I have many business owners of multi-million dollar annual income companies as my clients whose business earnings and business expenses are taxed as individuals. It is quite common. Having a business that makes 1.2 million dollars in net taxable income being listed as a "household income" is absurd but that is how the IRS tracks it for many of them. It skews the results significantly.

Most of my other clients' companies are taxed differently but many are counted as individuals.
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Old 01-04-2012, 02:21 PM   #794
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yeah, i already figured that out.
I'm slow, but I'm not very fast.

Did you have a chance to look at my msq?
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Old 01-04-2012, 02:23 PM   #795
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Originally Posted by sixshooter View Post
I have many business owners of multi-million dollar annual income companies as my clients whose business earnings and business expenses are taxed as individuals. It is quite common. Having a business that makes 1.2 million dollars in net taxable income being listed as a "household income" is absurd but that is how the IRS tracks it for many of them. It skews the results significantly.

Most of my other clients' companies are taxed differently but many are counted as individuals.
I'm not trying to call BS on this or anything, Sixshooter, but every source I've read on this previously and everything I've managed to dig up today has said differently.

Do you have a source/reference for this? I'm trying to find more information that supports this argument, and I am unable to. Even the IRS is very clear that these are individuals and, while they get income derived from s-corps, they aren't s-corps based on what is said.
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Old 01-04-2012, 03:14 PM   #796
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Originally Posted by blaen99 View Post
Do you have a source/reference for this? I'm trying to find more information that supports this argument, and I am unable to. Even the IRS is very clear that these are individuals and, while they get income derived from s-corps, they aren't s-corps based on what is said.
I think you guys are saying the same thing but don't realize it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wikipedia
In general, S corporations do not pay any federal income taxes. Instead, the corporation's income or losses are divided among and passed through to its shareholders. The shareholders must then report the income or loss on their own individual income tax returns.
Quote:
Originally Posted by IRS
S corporations are corporations that elect to pass corporate income, losses, deductions and credit through to their shareholders for federal tax purposes. Shareholders of S corporations report the flow-through of income and losses on their personal tax returns and are assessed tax at their individual income tax rates. This allows S corporations to avoid double taxation on the corporate income. S corporations are responsible for tax on certain built-in gains and passive income.
I also think you are both technically correct. The average filer on that list (which may include joint income families and is not the top 400 individual persons) earned ~20% of their AGI from S-corp or partnership income, AKA pass-through income.


However, of more consequence (in my opinion) is the fact that the list is more of a largely random group of one or two-time members. Lotto winners, a sports star with a big signing contract, a huge year for a celebrity or performer, a guy that finally sold the company he worked to build up for 20 years, etc.

That list, for the most part, is not made up of people that make $30 million a year, every year.


Furthermore, the "tax loopholes" that any of them take advantage of seem to be open to everyone who fits the bill. Make $20 million in S-corp pass-through income? You get the same options as the guy that makes $2k as a sole proprietor.

Make $10 million selling IBM stock you inherited from your great grandmother? You get the same tax treatment as the guy that inherited $1k worth.


Earn all of your income through a salary? You obviously don't get the advantages of pass-through income. You also don't have the many negatives of owning a business.

Don't have any long-term capital gains to take? How is that the fault of the guy that bought shares of AAPL in 2009?
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Old 01-04-2012, 03:19 PM   #797
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I think you guys are saying the same thing but don't realize it.





I also think you are both technically correct. The average filer on that list (which may include joint income families and is not the top 400 individual persons) earned ~20% of their AGI from S-corp or partnership income, AKA pass-through income.


However, of more consequence (in my opinion) is the fact that the list is more of a largely random group of one or two-time members. Lotto winners, a sports star with a big signing contract, a huge year for a celebrity or performer, a guy that finally sold the company he worked to build up for 20 years, etc.

That list, for the most part, is not made up of people that make $30 million a year, every year.


Furthermore, the "tax loopholes" that any of them take advantage of seem to be open to everyone who fits the bill. Make $20 million in S-corp pass-through income? You get the same options as the guy that makes $2k as a sole proprietor.

Make $10 million selling IBM stock you inherited from your great grandmother? You get the same tax treatment as the guy that inherited $1k worth.


Earn all of your income through a salary? You obviously don't get the advantages of pass-through income. You also don't have the many negatives of owning a business.

Don't have any long-term capital gains to take? How is that the fault of the guy that bought shares of AAPL in 2009?
I'm sorry Scrappy, but I'm going to have to strongly disagree using Sixshooter's own words.

Quote:
What you have in your top 400 taxpayers is a straw man fallacy. Those will not be individuals but small corporations (sole proprietorships, or S-corps) being taxed as individuals. And being corporations they have operating expenses that can be claimed as tax deductions, thereby lowering their tax rate percentages. We have been over this again and again.
What he's arguing is incompatible with your view.
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Old 01-04-2012, 03:49 PM   #798
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I'm sorry Scrappy, but I'm going to have to strongly disagree using Sixshooter's own words.



What he's arguing is incompatible with your view.
Then it was I, and not he, that was wrong. I know that these s-corps incomes are reported on individual's tax returns and that it skews the numbers regarding the "highest wage earners" that we hear so much banter about. And that these are demagogued as individual incomes that people should not be entitled to keep. And I have read several articles about the misrepresentation of the numbers regarding this information.

I made the erroneous assumption that the top 400 would be made up of these multi-million dollar earning businesses, but forgot the prolific nature of lottery winners and one-time windfalls that would have made the very top of the list. My mistake.

And Scrappy is correct. Thank you, Scrappy, for citing that information. I'm not doing an excellent job of juggling forum involvement and my daily work burden...
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Old 01-04-2012, 03:53 PM   #799
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thread needs more pics:



IDs are required in the UK to buy teaspoons because someone killed someone with one once:




Quote:
Pennsylvania Troopers Do Care

I get irritated when people come down on our law enforcement officers, saying that they don’t care about or respect others. Well, here is a story that clearly shows not all cops are in that category.

This story involves Troopers of the Pennsylvania State Police who reported finding a man’s body last Saturday in the early evening in the Susquehanna River near Millersburg. The dead man’s name would not be released until his family had been notified.

The victim apparently drowned due to excessive beer consumption while visiting “someone” in a local bar . He was wearing black fishnet stockings, 4 inch spiked heels, a red garter belt, a pink G-string, purple lipstick, dazzle dust on his eyelids, 1/2 inch false eyelashes and an Obama T-shirt.

The Troopers removed the Obama T-shirt to spare his family any unnecessary embarrassment.

See there, Pennsylvania State Troopers really do care !!
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Old 01-04-2012, 03:56 PM   #800
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Then it was I, and not he, that was wrong. I know that these s-corps incomes are reported on individual's tax returns and that it skews the numbers regarding the "highest wage earners" that we hear so much banter about. And that these are demagogued as individual incomes that people should not be entitled to keep. And I have read several articles about the misrepresentation of the numbers regarding this information.

I made the erroneous assumption that the top 400 would be made up of these multi-million dollar earning businesses, but forgot the prolific nature of lottery winners and one-time windfalls that would have made the very top of the list. My mistake.

And Scrappy is correct. Thank you, Scrappy, for citing that information. I'm not doing an excellent job of juggling forum involvement and my daily work burden...
Holy **** Sixshooter. Mad respect and props.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Scrappy Jack View Post
I think you guys are saying the same thing but don't realize it.





I also think you are both technically correct. The average filer on that list (which may include joint income families and is not the top 400 individual persons) earned ~20% of their AGI from S-corp or partnership income, AKA pass-through income.


However, of more consequence (in my opinion) is the fact that the list is more of a largely random group of one or two-time members. Lotto winners, a sports star with a big signing contract, a huge year for a celebrity or performer, a guy that finally sold the company he worked to build up for 20 years, etc.

That list, for the most part, is not made up of people that make $30 million a year, every year.


Furthermore, the "tax loopholes" that any of them take advantage of seem to be open to everyone who fits the bill. Make $20 million in S-corp pass-through income? You get the same options as the guy that makes $2k as a sole proprietor.

Make $10 million selling IBM stock you inherited from your great grandmother? You get the same tax treatment as the guy that inherited $1k worth.


Earn all of your income through a salary? You obviously don't get the advantages of pass-through income. You also don't have the many negatives of owning a business.

Don't have any long-term capital gains to take? How is that the fault of the guy that bought shares of AAPL in 2009?
And now, back to "Blaen's incredible retardation because he's apparently trying to argue financial stuff with Scrappy".

Scrappy: Let's say I create a tax "loophole" that is, theoretically, open to anyone. However, in practice, only a handful of a certain demographic are able to utilize it.

Do you feel this is a justified and "fair" loophole for the populace as a whole?

Remember, earlier I advocated removing most loopholes and giving everyone a tax break instead. It boils down to the "fair share" argument of either Okay, I am paying too much, -OR- others are paying too little.

(And yes, Sixshooter, those in the bottom X% are paying too little too imo if I'm paying the "right amount.")
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