Dyno graphs from NE Dyno Day 11/15/08
11-21-2008, 03:27 PM
#42
So if the primary purpose of WI is to lower intake temps... AND NOTHING MORE...right? Does it do anything else? Then wouldn't you want to feed the WI controller with an IAT reading before and after the nozzle. The program would sense the ramp-up of IAT's and inject water accordingly. Are there "progressive" pumps that aren't simply on/off, but can supply different pressure... that would alleviate the need for stages.
You could put one sensor just after the intercooler, WI nozzle on the coldside, and second sensor just before the TB... that way, the controller could see pre-and-post injection temps, and give just enough water to maintain a specific temperature.
As the first sensor saw temps climbing through say 90*, it would start injecting water, giving just enough to stabilize in the 95* area at the second sensor. I'm talking out my *** here since I know nothing about water injection or ideal intake temps (other than colder is better)
I would say though before doing all the work on that, you'd want an efficient turbo, good cooling system, proper air-filter placement to minimize intake air temps, good engine compartment heat-shielding, properly sized intercooler getting good airflow. Make sure you're not using WI as a band-aid for inefficiencies in your build. I'm not speaking to anybody in particular, just generalities.
You could put one sensor just after the intercooler, WI nozzle on the coldside, and second sensor just before the TB... that way, the controller could see pre-and-post injection temps, and give just enough water to maintain a specific temperature.
As the first sensor saw temps climbing through say 90*, it would start injecting water, giving just enough to stabilize in the 95* area at the second sensor. I'm talking out my *** here since I know nothing about water injection or ideal intake temps (other than colder is better)
I would say though before doing all the work on that, you'd want an efficient turbo, good cooling system, proper air-filter placement to minimize intake air temps, good engine compartment heat-shielding, properly sized intercooler getting good airflow. Make sure you're not using WI as a band-aid for inefficiencies in your build. I'm not speaking to anybody in particular, just generalities.
WI doesn't really "reduce intake temps". Or at least that's not the main idea behind its' use. The WI system supplies water that will be uniformly introduced with the gas/air charge when it's filling the cylinder before combustion. Whether it cools the air any now doesn't really matter. What matters is when you compress the mixture, the water will vaporize. The heat of vaporization associated with the phase change is what gives it such a "cooling" effect. IE-water will stay the same temperature while it's changing phases, from liquid to vapor, while absorbing heat.
If I were building a setup, I'd have two stages ideally. First stage would be pressure dependent only and come on at like 4 PSI or something low. Basically as soon as boost starts coming on, I get a shot of water. Maybe 6% by rate of total fuel burned at peak power. Then I'd have a second stage that was triggered when both:
1) RPM was 4500 and higher
2) 15 PSI or more.
Second stage would probably be a similar size as the first stage and basically only come on for high load, WOT pulls.
Last edited by patsmx5; 11-21-2008 at 03:46 PM.
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11-21-2008, 04:22 PM
#44
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If you get a larger turbo you will end up running the same boost level at more power. If you want to stay at 300rwhp or "a bit above" then you should keep your 2560 cause you can't beat the torque that turbo gives you and save up for a ring.
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11-21-2008, 04:31 PM
#47
Paul go get a GT3271 like me and see what happens. It's a twin scroll too. This summer, when I build a custom manifold, I'm gonna build in a diverter valve to direct all the gasses into one side of the turbo to help spool. So who knows, I might make boost before you do. 
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11-21-2008, 04:51 PM
#49
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Yeah no kidding. Who's gonna put a bigger turbo and tune it to make the same power? Paul go get a GT3271 like me and see what happens. It's a twin scroll too. This summer, when I build a custom manifold, I'm gonna build in a diverter valve to direct all the gasses into one side of the turbo to help spool. So who knows, I might make boost before you do.
Paul go get a GT3271 like me and see what happens. It's a twin scroll too. This summer, when I build a custom manifold, I'm gonna build in a diverter valve to direct all the gasses into one side of the turbo to help spool. So who knows, I might make boost before you do. The 3271 is not much bigger than the 2560, map wise.
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11-21-2008, 05:43 PM
#50
Yeah, I don't know much about turbos. From the garrett site, they say the 2560 is rated for 200-330HP. The 3271 is rated for 200-420hp. That's about a 100 HP difference. Compressor maps are pretty different to me. What exactly about them is similar? I've heard you say this before, so you've got my attention.
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11-21-2008, 06:04 PM
#51
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the 2871 would be more similar to the 3271, as the only difference would be a larger turbine...
you get about 5 lb/min more flow out of the the 71mm wheel, but it also peaks at 76% efficiency, the 2560 only 73%...
you get about 5 lb/min more flow out of the the 71mm wheel, but it also peaks at 76% efficiency, the 2560 only 73%...
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11-22-2008, 08:22 AM
#53
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I think the car's weight is playing a big part in the trans and diff lasting. Car weighs 2046lbs. The previous trans had 300k on it and had no problems, I only swapped it because I was worried it wouldn't last.
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11-22-2008, 09:46 AM
#54
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Yeah, I don't know much about turbos. From the garrett site, they say the 2560 is rated for 200-330HP. The 3271 is rated for 200-420hp. That's about a 100 HP difference. Compressor maps are pretty different to me. What exactly about them is similar? I've heard you say this before, so you've got my attention.
I think if you overlay the peak efficiency lines of each compressor map (even though yeah the 3271 is at 77%, 2560 is 73% :( ) They are closer than say the 2560 and 2871 (keep in mind there's at least 3 different 2871 compressor trims). If I knew photoshop better I'd show you. Scott is good like that however...
The 2871 looks like a helluva turbo. I honestly don't know what trim I'd choose, probably the biggest (56 trim) with the smaller turbine A/R (.64).
I could be completely wrong on this whole thing though. I admit I am not an expert on compressor or turbine maps and comparing them.
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11-22-2008, 12:59 PM
#55
I agree- you're car is 2-300 lbs lighter than most of the Miatas running that much power. That's nearly 10%. I think it's perfect more power. The weak link is the trans, and it looks like a six speed would fix that. The only rears that break are torsens- and it's the gears in the torsen... right?
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11-22-2008, 02:41 PM
#58
Here are the dyno vids at least (thanks to TurboTim and Paul)
My run (Begi S3):
Paul's Machine (Absurdflow)
TurboTim's Twin Turbo
BruceW's V8
EvanK's fail train.
Paul's Daily (Begi S with AbsurdFlow downpipe)
MikeRiv87's stock oil burner
Artie's Absurdflow w/ Gutted '99 Intake Mani
Artie's Absurdflow w/ Stock '99 Intake Mani
My run (Begi S3):
Paul's Machine (Absurdflow)
TurboTim's Twin Turbo
BruceW's V8
EvanK's fail train.
Paul's Daily (Begi S with AbsurdFlow downpipe)
MikeRiv87's stock oil burner
Artie's Absurdflow w/ Gutted '99 Intake Mani
Artie's Absurdflow w/ Stock '99 Intake Mani
Last edited by johndoe; 11-22-2008 at 03:02 PM.
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11-22-2008, 07:08 PM
#59
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OK. As Artie said I got the drf files today from Anthony. If anyone wants the raw files they are all located at Index of /dynoruns/11-15-08
Now for some graphs:
First all cars HP:
and don't cry but here are all cars TQ:
here are the top 3 HP cars with actual Miata motors: Me, Tim, Artie
and here are the same top 3 TQ cars: Artie, Me, Tim,
the first 4 cars to hit 200ftlbs of torque: Me, Artie, Me, Artie
the first 4 cars to hit 200hp: Me, Artie, Artie, JohnDoe
Now for some graphs:
First all cars HP:
and don't cry but here are all cars TQ:
here are the top 3 HP cars with actual Miata motors: Me, Tim, Artie
and here are the same top 3 TQ cars: Artie, Me, Tim,
the first 4 cars to hit 200ftlbs of torque: Me, Artie, Me, Artie
the first 4 cars to hit 200hp: Me, Artie, Artie, JohnDoe
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