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Old 10-31-2013, 02:40 PM   #19221
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Originally Posted by sixshooter View Post
Porsche has spent the last 75 years perfecting a bad idea.

And to further demonstrate their corporate leaders' audacity they have artificially restrained development of the vastly superior layout of the Cayman (mid engine more bueno than rear engine) to keep it slower and less capable. It is a demonstration of the triumph of marketing driving the company over substance.

In all fairness to Porsche they did try to get away from the 911 as the flagship car. The 928 was supposed to be the replacement for the 911 as the bestestest model, it was an FR car.

The reason it failed was not because of porsche but because of Porsche owners. They are loyal as hell and would not accept a non rear engine flat 6 Porsche. To them a Porsche was a rear engine flat 6 car.

I hate the C7...I think it looks horrid.

I would take this over any other porshe:

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Old 10-31-2013, 02:43 PM   #19222
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In all fairness to Porsche they did try to get away from the 911 as the flagship car. The 968 was supposed to be the replacement for the 911 as the bestestest model, it was an FR car.
You mean the 928.

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Old 10-31-2013, 02:47 PM   #19223
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Except the comparable Porsche (the Turbo) lists for $137k.
???

At the quarter-mile, yes, you'd need the Turbo to reliably show up the ZR1. But in every other measurable aspect, the ZR1 isn't even in the same league as the 911 Turbo S.

It's also, as MicaCeli stated, uglier than Amy Winehouse.





I can barely tell which is which.



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And that's before you add any options. Here's a window sticker for a 2011 Turbo S. It's over $200k.
Yes, but for the purpose of comparing apples to apricots, all prices quoted must be base MSRP with no options. With the 3ZR trim package, metallic paint, chrome wheels, the "Engine Build Experience" package and a few other options, plus delivery and gas-guzzler tax, sticker on the ZR1 approaches $140k.
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Last edited by Joe Perez; 10-31-2013 at 03:13 PM.
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Old 10-31-2013, 02:51 PM   #19224
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the styling of the new c7? is seriously a miss.
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Old 10-31-2013, 02:53 PM   #19225
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You mean the 928.

Yes that one, can't keep up with all those numbers. I would like the manufacturers to get back to using names for cars, it was just much better. Hyundai does it, name your luxury car the Credenza why don'tcha.

This is not the fastest not the cheapest or the best handling car, but I would own this and love it everyday:



My friends dad owns one, and the level of quality in the interior and the look and feel of the car...it just does something to me.

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Old 10-31-2013, 03:04 PM   #19226
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as I am not Joe Perez, this thread is on page:



962
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Old 10-31-2013, 03:04 PM   #19227
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe Perez View Post
???

At the quarter-mile, yes, you'd need the Turbo to reliably show up the ZR1. But in every other measurable aspect, the ZR1 isn't even in the same league as the 911 Turbo S.

It's also, as MicaCeli stated, uglier than Amy Winehouse.
I feel like you and I are having different conversations.

A) The ZR1 is a C6. Your picture is a C7.

B) I'll go find some track times for the C6 ZR1 and Z06 vs a 911 Turbo and we can see if your performance metrics are accurate or if you have no idea what you are talking about.

C) Capt. James Kirk will be at the helm of the USA's most advanced new class of "stealth" destroyers.

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Old 10-31-2013, 03:14 PM   #19228
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Exhibit A:

The quickest Corvette at Car & Driver's Lightning Lap is a ZR1. It turned in a lap time of 2:50.7.

A Z06 also turned in a 2:53.5. A Grand Sport ran a 2:58.8.

The quickest Porsche was a 911 GT3 RS at 2:55.9. A 911 Turbo S ran a 2:57.5.


The ZR1's time is also quicker than those for: a Gallardo LP570-4 SL, a GT-R, a Murcialago L670-4 SV, a F430 Scuderia, and an Ariel Atom, among others.

The slowest lap time recorded for the Lightning Lap was a 3:29.3 by an MX-5.


Acknowledging all the caveats of the LL, I am sure there are plenty more reviews that show the ZR1 is comparable to - if not superior to - a similarly priced Porsche.

Link to lap times

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Old 10-31-2013, 03:17 PM   #19229
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I was all ready with this image before you edited your post.

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Old 10-31-2013, 03:29 PM   #19230
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Originally Posted by Scrappy Jack View Post
I feel like you and I are having different conversations.

A) The ZR1 is a C6. Your picture is a C7.
Yes, sorry. C6 production ceased in February, the 2013 ZR1s (to the best of my knowledge) are all sold out, and the C7 ZR1 hasn't been released yet. I am using the 2013 pricing for the ZR1, as I assume that (given the price similarity between the base 2013 and 2014 models), the new ZR1 will cost about the same as the last one did.


Quote:
B) I'll go find some track times for the C6 ZR1 and Z06 vs a 911 Turbo and we can see if your performance metrics are accurate or if you have no idea what you are talking about.
I have no idea what I'm talking about, but I'm basing my metrics on published data. The 0-60 and 1/4 mile times for the ZR1 are sort of intermixed between the 911 S and the 911 Turbo, as are published laptimes at several major tracks.

Laptimes, however, are not the only metric of importance to a person who is about to spend $100k on a single car. The interior of the C7 is no better than the last one in terms of being a nice place to sit, the overall fit-and-finish hasn't improved much in recent years, and, frankly, it's just not in the same league at the country club.

The Corvette was never supposed to be a high-end race car- it was supposed to be a fun, American roadster. A bigger, louder, processed-cheese-eating version of the great British roadsters of the 1960s.

The 911 is simply more refined.



Quote:
C) Capt. James Kirk will be at the helm of the USA's most advanced new class of "stealth" destroyers.
That... is awesome!

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Old 10-31-2013, 04:23 PM   #19231
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Originally Posted by Joe Perez View Post
???

At the quarter-mile, yes, you'd need the Turbo to reliably show up the ZR1. But in every other measurable aspect, the ZR1 isn't even in the same league as the 911 Turbo S.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe Perez View Post
Yes, sorry. C6 production ceased in February, the 2013 ZR1s (to the best of my knowledge) are all sold out, and the C7 ZR1 hasn't been released yet. I am using the 2013 pricing for the ZR1, as I assume that (given the price similarity between the base 2013 and 2014 models), the new ZR1 will cost about the same as the last one did.
There is zero information available on whether there will be a ZR1 equivalent for the C7 chassis, so there's little point in discussing it. There was never really anything like it before the C6, so there is no guarantee there will be a C7 version. The Z06 might make more sense as it carried over from the C5 to the C6. Again, no info released yet so any discussion of $100k+ Corvettes should be limited to the C6 versions.


Quote:
I have no idea what I'm talking about, but I'm basing my metrics on published data. The 0-60 and 1/4 mile times for the ZR1 are sort of intermixed between the 911 S and the 911 Turbo, as are published laptimes at several major tracks.
What lap times does the 911 S or 911 Turbo hold that are quicker than the ZR1? I've listed VIR (which is the "Nurburgring of the USA") and now, here is Laguna Seca from 2010:



The ZR1's quickest time I can find is a 1:33.70 run by Pobst. The quickest Porsche time is a 911 GT2 RS driven by van Overbee to a 1:35.56.

In 2011, for Motor Trend's Best Driver's Car, the naturally aspirated Z06 ran a 1:34.4 while the 911 GT3 RS ran a 1:36.8. Both were wearing Michelin Pilot Sport Cups.

Quote:
Laptimes, however, are not the only metric of importance to a person who is about to spend $100k on a single car. The interior of the C7 is no better than the last one in terms of being a nice place to sit, the overall fit-and-finish hasn't improved much in recent years, and, frankly, it's just not in the same league at the country club.

The Corvette was never supposed to be a high-end race car- it was supposed to be a fun, American roadster. A bigger, louder, processed-cheese-eating version of the great British roadsters of the 1960s.

The 911 is simply more refined.
You are the one that mentioned the Porsche being better in every "measurable" way. I'm happy to concede that the Porsche is better in many ways, but performance is certainly not among them when discussing the ZR1.

I'll grant you the C6 interior was better, but maybe not leaps and bounds beyond a C6 but have you been in a C7? I am starting to feel like you are just trolling me now...

Also, what country clubs do you belong to? A Porsche might carry more prestige than a ZR1, but I think you are underestimating the attention that car would garner.

As for the Corvette not being designed to be a competitive sports car, there were four Corvettes entered in the 24 Hours of Le Mans in 1960. One of those C1 cars won its class and finished 8th overall.


If you say you just don't like the Corvette and think the Porsche is preferable or that some snobs will view it more favorably, I'm inclined not to disagree. But your other positions...


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Old 10-31-2013, 04:24 PM   #19232
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Originally Posted by Joe Perez View Post
For the same reason that the $112,600* Corvette ZR1 is still using the same leaf-springs that were on the bottomside of the covered wagon that my ancestors rode across the Appalachian Trail in the early 1800s.
Appalachian Trail:

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Oregon Trail:

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Old 10-31-2013, 04:47 PM   #19233
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Originally Posted by Scrappy Jack View Post
Fine, it's not worth arguing over. Lipstick on a pig is still a pig.



Quote:
Originally Posted by adamiata View Post
Appalachian Trail:

Attachment 93272

Oregon Trail:

Attachment 93273
My ancestors actually came over by boat, in the 1960s. But boats don't have suspensions, so the analogy falls apart.

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Old 10-31-2013, 05:10 PM   #19234
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For my money I'm going to still choose lightness, if anything. But I just know that for all the apparent drama evident in this little Caterham during the lap, that the Porsche driver was probably listening to a piano concerto while having a discussion with his passenger regarding the nuances of French versus Italian charcuterie.

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Old 10-31-2013, 05:26 PM   #19235
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My ancestors actually came over by boat, in the 1960s. But boats don't have suspensions, so the analogy falls apart.
It is a fact that Cubans arrived in the USA via boats with suspensions. Your argument is invalid.

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Old 10-31-2013, 06:51 PM   #19236
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It is a fact that Cubans arrived in the USA via boats with suspensions. Your argument is invalid.
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Old 10-31-2013, 07:21 PM   #19237
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I hope his grandkids got lots of mileage out of their last name.

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Pet peave: schools and facilities named after douches who worked for the school board instead of actual locations of said school or really admirable Americans who are worthy of being memorialized.
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Old 10-31-2013, 08:21 PM   #19238
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Cant we just agree that both Porsches and Corvettes are primarily for middle aged men to drive in hopes that some gold digging bimbo with fake **** will take their flacid wrinkly cocktail sausage to tonsil depth for a few minutes?

Unrelated:


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Old 10-31-2013, 09:39 PM   #19239
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Originally Posted by Joe Perez View Post
???

At the quarter-mile, yes, you'd need the Turbo to reliably show up the ZR1. But in every other measurable aspect, the ZR1 isn't even in the same league as the 911 Turbo S.

It's also, as MicaCeli stated, uglier than Amy Winehouse.








Rear engine haters will hate, but watching an old 911 on R1Rs squat, then proceed to haul ***, coming out of a tight corner, is magical. One could argue every car that isn't mid-engine, rear-drive, is an "inherently flawed" car.


Corvette, 911, GTR, Audi Quattro, BMW M3, Honda S2000, Mitsibishi EVO, Subaru STi, Mazda Miata, and vintage Mini...... all sub-par setups, which failed in any attempt at racing success.....

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Old 10-31-2013, 10:49 PM   #19240
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One could argue every car that isn't mid-engine, rear-drive, is an "inherently flawed" car.
In that case, this is the best car ever.

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