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Old 05-15-2014, 11:19 AM   #1
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Default My MSM is finished!



My pride and joy, a 2004 MSM that I bought almost 5 years ago. It has been out of comission since last June getting a motor overhaul. While we were at it waiting on some parts, we bought more parts, and it ended up being a lengthy and expensive project.

Engine
BP4W Mazdaspeed .020 over
BP4W ported head
Eagle H-Beam Rods
Wiseco 83.5mm 8.5:1
Boundary Engineering Street/Strip oil pump
SuperMiata harmonic damper
ARP head/main studs
ACL Race bearings
Supertech Valve Spring kit
VICS delete

Turbo
ARTech custom top-mount manifold
Swaintech White Lightning manifold coating
ARTech 3” v-band downpipe catless
BorgWarner EFR6258 turbo
CorkSport 80mm Catback
AN-4 feed
AN-10 drain

Cooling
TrackSpeedEngineering crossflow radiator
FlyinMiata coolant re-route
FlyinMiata Oil cooler kit
Fab9Tuning 550HP Intercooler
SPAL 14” curved fan
DeRale PS cooler

Electronics
Megasquirt 2xtra
Fab9Tuning COP kit
AEM EUGO WBo2
Autometer Boost gauge
FuelInjectorClinic 775cc ev14 injectors
Walbro 225lph pump

Drivetrain
Competition 13lb flywheel
FlyinMiata Stage2 clutch kit
PuddyMod Stage2 differential (cryo treated option)
Mazda “Aussie” 3.63 ring and pinion
Energy Differential mounts
SuperMiata SS Clutch line
MiataRoadster SS kit
Mazdaspeed competiton motor mounts
949Racing Driveshaft

Suspension
Tein FLEX 7kg/6kg Coilovers
RacingBeat 1.125” front sway bar
RacingBeat sway reinforcement kit
RacingBeat adjustable sway links
Hawk HPS pads
SuperMiata SS Brake lines
HardDog Hardcore Double Diagonal Rollbar

Wheels And Tires
949Racing 6UL gen3 15x9 Nicke
225/45/R15 Hankook Ventus RS3 tires
Forged lugs



Some of the parts were on the car before we started, but a lot was added along the way. We waited for about 3 months for the main bearings to come from ACL because nobody could get them and ACL apparently made a bad batch that they scrapped and started over (good thing I didnt get those).

Can't really do a build thread at this point but it was a really fun project. I learned lots along the way and got to assemble (with help of a great mechanic) lots of things on the car including the whole head, block, etc. a very hands on project. Car is set to go to Oracle Tuning to Ken Hill (formerly an FM employee) to be tuned at the end of the month. I am aiming for 300whp which should come fairly easily. I think it will do ~325 before breaking a sweat as a few others have done with similar setups.

FEELIN GOOD!
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My MSM is finished!-yc45vcp.jpg   My MSM is finished!-qkuzinfl.jpg   My MSM is finished!-e730ed73-860c-4508-8d91-9fa35853ea24_zps81b557d8.jpg  
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Old 05-15-2014, 03:01 PM   #2
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Alex - this came out top notch. Looks like you've got yourself a solid setup. That intercooler looks great
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Old 05-15-2014, 05:07 PM   #3
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Hurray on getting this bad boy back on the road! Looks quick, sweet turbo!
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Old 05-15-2014, 05:20 PM   #4
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This car is setup very closely to my build and I am interested in seeing how some numbers as well. Are you having issues with the amperage draw when the 14" SPAL kicks on? I'm having compensating for that in tunerstudio. Also are you running the Fab9 PNP COP kit or a full sequential?
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Old 05-15-2014, 07:33 PM   #5
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Originally Posted by FrankB View Post
This car is setup very closely to my build and I am interested in seeing how some numbers as well. Are you having issues with the amperage draw when the 14" SPAL kicks on? I'm having compensating for that in tunerstudio. Also are you running the Fab9 PNP COP kit or a full sequential?
It's a fab9 in wasted spark setup. Yes, car dies when it's fully warmed up and the fan hits. My mechanic suggested some kind of amperage restrictor or clip I forget. Ill see if my tuner can figure it out. Does your car die when you're fully warmed up and just come out of gear into neutral? Loss in rpm from clutch depression?
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Old 05-15-2014, 10:03 PM   #6
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Yes, my car sometimes dies when the fan kicks on at idle, especially right when coming out of gear. The RPMs drop really low but the engine recovers most of the time. If you put a restrictor on it you'll lose a lot of the CFMs. There wasn't anything my tuner could change to make up for it. Soviet wasn't able to tune it out on his car either, I think he ended up going with a higher output alternator but is now working out some issues with that. I send you the best of luck with trying to sort that out. If you find something that works please let me know.
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Old 05-15-2014, 10:35 PM   #7
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Reverent said

Enable closed loop control then: Base Setup -> EGO Control -> Controller Authority: 25%.

I won't get to try for a few days. Anyone else welcome to.

What is causing the stalling? The fan? I doubt it because the car dies coming out of gear even at 40 or 50mph sometimes.
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Old 05-15-2014, 10:39 PM   #8
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I'm not sure about your situation but my stalling is from the fan kicking on and drawing too much amperage that the car can't compensate
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Old 05-15-2014, 10:59 PM   #9
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Smaller fan a solution?
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Old 05-15-2014, 11:38 PM   #10
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Correction to initial post: "VICS delete" should read "VTCS delete" - MSMs have a VTCS intake manifold.

I posted this correction in your mazda-speed.com thread too but it got deleted for some reason.

Looking forward to your dyno chart to compare it to my build when it's finished. I still need to install my Fab9 COPs, Fab9 350hp intercooler, squaretop intake manifold and Skunk2 throttle body - just waiting on the ID 725cc injectors to arrive (apart from the intercooler, the other components are easier to install in one hit since the intake manifold head needs to be removed to install the injectors and I plan to mount the Fab9 COP control unit on the shelf under the brake booster which will be easier to install with the intake manifold removed completely).
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Old 05-16-2014, 12:09 AM   #11
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This car is awesome! I wish I could have rode in it with the big turbo on! Glad to see it finally coming all together. Now I need to get my *** in gear and go bigger turbo.
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Old 05-16-2014, 12:43 AM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FrankB View Post
Soviet wasn't able to tune it out on his car either, I think he ended up going with a higher output alternator but is now working out some issues with that. I send you the best of luck with trying to sort that out. If you find something that works please let me know.
Actually the 90A alternator off a V6 mazda/probe solved it, the issues I'm having now are unrelated.
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Old 05-16-2014, 12:48 AM   #13
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Actually the 90A alternator off a V6 mazda/probe solved it, the issues I'm having now are unrelated.
Expensive part? Were you able to use same belt?

I'm not sure if I want to fork out more money or just get a smaller fan. It is a very annoying issue. Depends how much the alternator is

I have ms2x btw
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Old 05-16-2014, 02:23 AM   #14
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Can you increase idle target by 50-100 RPM? I've got the same fan and had the same issue last year. Now my CL idle needs some work to get it back to targets, it idles ~1200 RPM hot and barely notice when the fan kicks in. That thing sure does move some air.

Now that the A/C is gone I wish I had gone with the 13" model instead.
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Old 05-16-2014, 03:02 AM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mazdaspeeder View Post
Expensive part? Were you able to use same belt?

I'm not sure if I want to fork out more money or just get a smaller fan. It is a very annoying issue. Depends how much the alternator is

I have ms2x btw
$30 at a junkyard with a 1 year warranty
the stock belt fits. you can use any KL-DE equipped car
Some of them came with 5 rib, some with 4 rib belts - but it still fits either way.

Some (MX-6, 626) have same plug as NA miatas, others (Millenia) have a different plug.

For mounting, the lower bolt sometimes goes back-to-front (MX-6) or front-to-back (Millenia) - it depends which hole of the lower mount is threaded.

The upper mounting ear is a little bit offset so I couldn't use a tensioner bolt = tension by brute force.
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Old 05-16-2014, 04:17 AM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mazdaspeeder View Post
Reverent said

Enable closed loop control then: Base Setup -> EGO Control -> Controller Authority: 25%.

I won't get to try for a few days. Anyone else welcome to.

What is causing the stalling? The fan? I doubt it because the car dies coming out of gear even at 40 or 50mph sometimes.
When your car is warm, it starts to heatsoak the IAT sensor. When this happens, the ECU is pulling lots of fuel, leaning the mixture (16-17:1 range).

This makes the engine lose lots of power, and something even as simple as both fans coming on will make the engine droop badly or even stall. By enabling closed loop, you are making sure that you always idle at 14.7:1 (or lower), so a stall won't happen.

Actually, I don't even remember when was the last time my car stalled and obviously I'm running closed loop all the time (in fact, I'm running closed loop per cylinder with the MS3).
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Old 05-16-2014, 10:24 AM   #17
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Originally Posted by Reverant View Post
When your car is warm, it starts to heatsoak the IAT sensor. When this happens, the ECU is pulling lots of fuel, leaning the mixture (16-17:1 range).

This makes the engine lose lots of power, and something even as simple as both fans coming on will make the engine droop badly or even stall. By enabling closed loop, you are making sure that you always idle at 14.7:1 (or lower), so a stall won't happen.

Actually, I don't even remember when was the last time my car stalled and obviously I'm running closed loop all the time (in fact, I'm running closed loop per cylinder with the MS3).
I'm going to try this first. Should I still do the EGO control thing you said?
Quote:
Originally Posted by soviet View Post
$30 at a junkyard with a 1 year warranty
the stock belt fits. you can use any KL-DE equipped car
Some of them came with 5 rib, some with 4 rib belts - but it still fits either way.

Some (MX-6, 626) have same plug as NA miatas, others (Millenia) have a different plug.

For mounting, the lower bolt sometimes goes back-to-front (MX-6) or front-to-back (Millenia) - it depends which hole of the lower mount is threaded.

The upper mounting ear is a little bit offset so I couldn't use a tensioner bolt = tension by brute force.
And if that doesn't work I'll try this second.

If anyone gets to do this (FrankB) before myself, please let us know results
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Old 05-16-2014, 11:29 AM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mazdaspeeder View Post
I'm going to try this first. Should I still do the EGO control thing you said?
What I said about EGO is what you should do. In some cases, setting the timing in the idle regions to 14 may also help.
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Old 05-16-2014, 12:02 PM   #19
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What I said about EGO is what you should do. In some cases, setting the timing in the idle regions to 14 may also help.
I will give it a try. Hoping I can make it work with the stock alternator.

Will this possibly help the car from stalling when its coming out of gear. If I'm driving and just put the car in neutral, it will shut off unless i touch the pedal to maintain the RPM, almost like there's nothing there to "catch" it from falling below a certain point. This only happens once the car is warmed up.
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Old 05-16-2014, 12:18 PM   #20
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The alternator will help but Rev is correct. The car should not take that big of a hit due to the additional electrical loads of a fan. It's my experience that each ECU will respond differently to this but MS was especially touchy.

I don't think anyone has pointed this out yet but the MSM relies on the ECU to make adjustments. They did this to solve this exact problem they can literally tune around and anticipate the additional loads.

I have the feeling an internally regulated alternator all together will substantially help or solve the problem (although you shouldn't dismiss the fact that you still probably have some tuning to do). It's not that the current alternator doesn't have the ability to overcome the load, it's that it does not respond quickly enough to take care of it. Yes, some of it is the sensitivity to your tune but I'm running two relatively high current fans that activate at the same time without a hiccup and all I did was swap to an older NA alternator that was internally regulated.
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