BEGi NB200 Turbo Kit
03-15-2013, 11:54 AM
#1
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BEGi NB200 Turbo Kit
Looks interesting. I have an NA with a Hydra (and an FMII coming this spring), so it doesn't really apply to me, but I searched and it doesn't seem like it's ever been discussed on MT. I am wondering why it is NB-only (maybe because of the built-in knock sensing?), and would love to know a bit more about the ECU "reflash." I was under the impression that the NA/NB ECUs weren't really reflash-able?
Anyway, could be a good intro option for NB owners.
Anyway, could be a good intro option for NB owners.
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03-15-2013, 01:09 PM
#3
It is also an option for those who want to remain OBDII-compliant for state inspections.
While it doesn't have the adjustability of stand-alone units, it's literally plug n' play. If you're already set with your hardware and feel that it won't be changing anymore, it makes the reflash even better.
The external wastegate on the NB200 kit is a nice touch.
While it doesn't have the adjustability of stand-alone units, it's literally plug n' play. If you're already set with your hardware and feel that it won't be changing anymore, it makes the reflash even better.
The external wastegate on the NB200 kit is a nice touch.
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05-06-2013, 10:39 PM
#5
Former Vendor
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Texas Hill Country
Posts: 271
Total Cats: 11
The kit sounds decent enough for OBDII guys, I just don't want to start having to ship things back that don't fit correct the first time.[/QUOTE]
Mr. Karter 74,
All those folks that own UPS stock thank me. We actually spread the $$ around, as we burn extra argon, use more weld rods, wear out drill bits, on and on..........
We list and file all known mistakes. Even created a special file cabinet for such. I should say "had" as the cabinet recently collapsed from the shear mass of the paper. The bent wreckage made a bunch of nice heat shields.
I personally train all new fabricators and it's been so long since we've made a mistake that I can't even remember one. On further thought, perhaps that previous sentence explains two things that I had not intended.
A bit more on the real side, I think we've got production working pretty well.
Corky
Mr. Karter 74,
All those folks that own UPS stock thank me. We actually spread the $$ around, as we burn extra argon, use more weld rods, wear out drill bits, on and on..........
We list and file all known mistakes. Even created a special file cabinet for such. I should say "had" as the cabinet recently collapsed from the shear mass of the paper. The bent wreckage made a bunch of nice heat shields.
I personally train all new fabricators and it's been so long since we've made a mistake that I can't even remember one. On further thought, perhaps that previous sentence explains two things that I had not intended.
A bit more on the real side, I think we've got production working pretty well.
Corky
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05-07-2013, 04:02 PM
#7
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Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: Portland, Oregon
Posts: 35
Total Cats: 4
Corky,
Not to put you on the spot (OK, really to put you in the center of the spot), but can you explain to me why the BEGi NB200 is a better kit than an FM Voodoo II? Not why BEGi kits are better than FM kits in general (I have read all those discussions on the BEGi and FM websites and in more online forums than I can remember), but specifically why the NB200 is better than the Voodoo II. I don't expect objectivity in this, just why you think BEGi has the better kit.
I have a (currently) stock 2004 NB, 28k miles, and want to increase the hp to more or less 200whp once I have the suspension upgraded (handling trumps power as far as I am concerned -- but my experience is with, and preference for, traditional British sports cars, so I guess that would have to be my bias). Anyway, I have settled on the Voodoo II or the NB200 as the means, at generally comparable cost (cost is always a concern, at least for me), have a spreadsheet comparing the components of the two kits (and cost of options), and keep going back and forth as to which is a better fit for my needs (which is not to be the fastest or quickest ticket generator on the preferably twisty mountain road, just to reliably have enough power on tap when I need/want it). This is not a track car, and I have no plans to turn it into one. This may well be the last sports car I own, and I am very happy that enjoying it does not require regular blood sacrifices to Lucas, Prince of Darkness.
Frankly, the discussions I have read (on a number of Miata forums, not just here) supposedly comparing the two kits have not been that helpful, since they tend to quickly break down into the BEGi vs FM advocates, get bogged down in a fairly theoretical "more advanced vs less advanced" design argument (in my experience, a less advanced but well-executed design will often outperform a more advanced but less well-executed design), focus on BEGi fitment issues (which is a concern), or end up with the "both are OK for what they are, but really you should get 'X' instead because it puts out so much more awesome power it will blow you (and everyone else) away" topic hijack.
One of the things I am concerned about in the NB200 is the use of a Chinese turbo, since optioning a Garrett opens a significant cost gap between the two kits. One of the expensive and sometimes painful lessons I have learned over the years is the value of paying for quality parts -- but also not to pay for significantly higher quality than I need for a given application.
And, like FM, do you recommend installing a heavier clutch when hp is increased to about 200whp?
Anyway, the floor is yours.
Thanks,
Bill
Not to put you on the spot (OK, really to put you in the center of the spot), but can you explain to me why the BEGi NB200 is a better kit than an FM Voodoo II? Not why BEGi kits are better than FM kits in general (I have read all those discussions on the BEGi and FM websites and in more online forums than I can remember), but specifically why the NB200 is better than the Voodoo II. I don't expect objectivity in this, just why you think BEGi has the better kit.
I have a (currently) stock 2004 NB, 28k miles, and want to increase the hp to more or less 200whp once I have the suspension upgraded (handling trumps power as far as I am concerned -- but my experience is with, and preference for, traditional British sports cars, so I guess that would have to be my bias). Anyway, I have settled on the Voodoo II or the NB200 as the means, at generally comparable cost (cost is always a concern, at least for me), have a spreadsheet comparing the components of the two kits (and cost of options), and keep going back and forth as to which is a better fit for my needs (which is not to be the fastest or quickest ticket generator on the preferably twisty mountain road, just to reliably have enough power on tap when I need/want it). This is not a track car, and I have no plans to turn it into one. This may well be the last sports car I own, and I am very happy that enjoying it does not require regular blood sacrifices to Lucas, Prince of Darkness.
Frankly, the discussions I have read (on a number of Miata forums, not just here) supposedly comparing the two kits have not been that helpful, since they tend to quickly break down into the BEGi vs FM advocates, get bogged down in a fairly theoretical "more advanced vs less advanced" design argument (in my experience, a less advanced but well-executed design will often outperform a more advanced but less well-executed design), focus on BEGi fitment issues (which is a concern), or end up with the "both are OK for what they are, but really you should get 'X' instead because it puts out so much more awesome power it will blow you (and everyone else) away" topic hijack.
One of the things I am concerned about in the NB200 is the use of a Chinese turbo, since optioning a Garrett opens a significant cost gap between the two kits. One of the expensive and sometimes painful lessons I have learned over the years is the value of paying for quality parts -- but also not to pay for significantly higher quality than I need for a given application.
And, like FM, do you recommend installing a heavier clutch when hp is increased to about 200whp?
Anyway, the floor is yours.
Thanks,
Bill
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05-15-2013, 06:39 AM
#8
Former Vendor
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Texas Hill Country
Posts: 271
Total Cats: 11
Hi Bill,
Specifics, not generalities, is what you want, I presume.
Boost control: A nicely integrated remote gate does everything a bit better. Power is slightly better, creep is far less likely, wastegate control is better because the area ratio of diaphragm to valve is better. The latter means less affect of the exhaust gas in pushing the gate's valve open too early.
Exhaust manifold: better internal streamlining. The turbo is anchored with 10 mm stunds, rather than 8mm's. We cut a special flanged nut for that joint.
Turbine outlet pipe: two things; its slight cone shape gets bigger as it goes aft. admittedly, an option. And the w/g vent tube being longer doesn't mess with the exhaust gas exiting the turbine as badly. Small power gain from both features.
Intercooler: ours is anchored firmly, not swung on perforated straps. The longer tubes of ours spells slightly greater efficiency. Probably something like 88/90% vs 80/85%. Ours has substantially more streamlined end tanks.
Ignition timing: I understand Vdoo retards the timing ALL the time just to be safe under boost. Ours is programmed in with stock timing UNTIL under boost. Net result is a "crisper" feel to throttle response and more economic operation.
Clutch life is a function of torque and shifting habits. I shift slower than I think, so I can get about 10K miles out of a stock clutch at about 2/210 rwhp
We do not use a correction factor on dyno numbers. I've never been able to verify Bill's correction factors. I assume Bill can.
I don't think you will have fitment problems. We do make some screw ups, but one very vocal customer couldn't fit the IC tubes because the IC was on backwards. The 10 mm studs are more difficult to tighten a nut onto than 8's. We've fixed perhaps 20 broken 8's on both ours and FM's manifolds. We've never fixed a 10.
Appearance is in the eye of who's looking, or their mind is already made up. However, a half dozen installers of both ours and FM's have referred to FM's as "cheesy" or "drab", Occasional comments are worse. No one has said such to me about the appearance of ours. Perhaps that's just politeness.
When the same installers finally finish out one of ours, they often comment on the better power per psi .
Such is my answer.
Regards,
Corky
Specifics, not generalities, is what you want, I presume.
Boost control: A nicely integrated remote gate does everything a bit better. Power is slightly better, creep is far less likely, wastegate control is better because the area ratio of diaphragm to valve is better. The latter means less affect of the exhaust gas in pushing the gate's valve open too early.
Exhaust manifold: better internal streamlining. The turbo is anchored with 10 mm stunds, rather than 8mm's. We cut a special flanged nut for that joint.
Turbine outlet pipe: two things; its slight cone shape gets bigger as it goes aft. admittedly, an option. And the w/g vent tube being longer doesn't mess with the exhaust gas exiting the turbine as badly. Small power gain from both features.
Intercooler: ours is anchored firmly, not swung on perforated straps. The longer tubes of ours spells slightly greater efficiency. Probably something like 88/90% vs 80/85%. Ours has substantially more streamlined end tanks.
Ignition timing: I understand Vdoo retards the timing ALL the time just to be safe under boost. Ours is programmed in with stock timing UNTIL under boost. Net result is a "crisper" feel to throttle response and more economic operation.
Clutch life is a function of torque and shifting habits. I shift slower than I think, so I can get about 10K miles out of a stock clutch at about 2/210 rwhp
We do not use a correction factor on dyno numbers. I've never been able to verify Bill's correction factors. I assume Bill can.
I don't think you will have fitment problems. We do make some screw ups, but one very vocal customer couldn't fit the IC tubes because the IC was on backwards. The 10 mm studs are more difficult to tighten a nut onto than 8's. We've fixed perhaps 20 broken 8's on both ours and FM's manifolds. We've never fixed a 10.
Appearance is in the eye of who's looking, or their mind is already made up. However, a half dozen installers of both ours and FM's have referred to FM's as "cheesy" or "drab", Occasional comments are worse. No one has said such to me about the appearance of ours. Perhaps that's just politeness.
When the same installers finally finish out one of ours, they often comment on the better power per psi .
Such is my answer.
Regards,
Corky
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05-15-2013, 03:50 PM
#10
As a customer that has been dealing with Begi for a long time now. I must say i'm satisfied.
I've had the begi kit on my nb running for 2 years pretty much perfectly.
The only maintenance i've done specifically for the turbo kit was replace the coolant and oil lines. I bought my kit used and the PO had ripped few lines, over tightened others, and cut the drain hose which ended up being short when i installed the kit on my car so my friends went to get a new hose which was not for oil so it ended up leaking.
I have 2 complaints about the kit total.
Complaint #1: The manifold... seriously that 2 piece slip fit joint is garbage. I'm not sure why you guys use it but its a waste of... everything. A 1 piece downpipe fits perfectly fine without pulling the engine or anything.
Bolt number 1 while trying to tighten up the damn thing to stop it from leaking.
Bolt number 2 after it was still leaking. The pipe spacer was used to move the pipe to allow clearance for wrenches.
That said here was my fix for that. Ever since i fixed it, it's been working perfectly. Why do you guys make it in 2 pieces anyways?
My other complaint is clearance for the wrenches but i know there's not much you guys can do about that.
I've had the begi kit on my nb running for 2 years pretty much perfectly.
The only maintenance i've done specifically for the turbo kit was replace the coolant and oil lines. I bought my kit used and the PO had ripped few lines, over tightened others, and cut the drain hose which ended up being short when i installed the kit on my car so my friends went to get a new hose which was not for oil so it ended up leaking.
I have 2 complaints about the kit total.
Complaint #1: The manifold... seriously that 2 piece slip fit joint is garbage. I'm not sure why you guys use it but its a waste of... everything. A 1 piece downpipe fits perfectly fine without pulling the engine or anything.
Bolt number 1 while trying to tighten up the damn thing to stop it from leaking.
Bolt number 2 after it was still leaking. The pipe spacer was used to move the pipe to allow clearance for wrenches.
That said here was my fix for that. Ever since i fixed it, it's been working perfectly. Why do you guys make it in 2 pieces anyways?
My other complaint is clearance for the wrenches but i know there's not much you guys can do about that.
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05-15-2013, 04:02 PM
#11
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Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: Portland, Oregon
Posts: 35
Total Cats: 4
Thanks, Corky -- this is very helpful. I really like the reflashed ECU this kit comes with, especially since I need to remain OBDII compliant (well, every other year). I have to think about upgrading the Chinese turbo/wastegate -- while I know a lot of people have had a very good experience with them, not all have, and sometimes I think I am one of those folks who, if they didn't have bad luck, wouldn't have any luck at all! If I want to swap 'em later, is there any problem doing so?
I've a couple of more questions. I see that the ECU reflash is described as safe to "8 or 9psi". Is there any downside or additional recommendations/requirements if the 10psi boost is chosen instead of the 8psi? Does it matter that, AFAIK, supreme here is 91 octane (pretty much the same gas as California)? And would the optional ceramic coating be more for appearance/rust prevention than significantly helping with heat with this kit, as is suggested on the website for some of your other low/moderately boosted turbo kits?
I want to make this as bulletproof as I reasonably can, but the cost/benefit ratio needs to make sense.
Bill
I've a couple of more questions. I see that the ECU reflash is described as safe to "8 or 9psi". Is there any downside or additional recommendations/requirements if the 10psi boost is chosen instead of the 8psi? Does it matter that, AFAIK, supreme here is 91 octane (pretty much the same gas as California)? And would the optional ceramic coating be more for appearance/rust prevention than significantly helping with heat with this kit, as is suggested on the website for some of your other low/moderately boosted turbo kits?
I want to make this as bulletproof as I reasonably can, but the cost/benefit ratio needs to make sense.
Bill
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05-15-2013, 04:05 PM
#12
Ah the emissions... well i tried that option with a xede piggy back... hated it and scared the **** of my self after it started pinging...LOUD, so now i'm running a standalone and switch out the injectors and the ecu every 2 years. Its just one of those things you gotta do but i'll take good drivability for those 2 years compare to having the car run like **** any day. In my state they dont look under the hood so if the obd2 says good then you pass. So to pass emissions i just unhook the wastegate while i'm running on the stock ecu. My experience has been that the stock ecu doesnt like to do anything other than run a stock car.
If you want bulletproof setup then a standalone is a must.
As far as rust, i didnt see a problem in my kit when i redid the hoses last month.
If you want bulletproof setup then a standalone is a must.
As far as rust, i didnt see a problem in my kit when i redid the hoses last month.
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05-15-2013, 04:15 PM
#14
Correction, you're limited to 5 psi by the stock injectors and if you like Russian roulette then you can run up to 6 psi at 12.5afr. Thats one thing that i find FM being either full of or their dyno reading 15-20hp high...their voodoo kits say 180whp... to get to that much you'll need 7-8 psi. You cant run 7-8 psi on stock injectors even if the the injectors sprayed 100%.
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05-15-2013, 04:42 PM
#17
Newb
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: Portland, Oregon
Posts: 35
Total Cats: 4
OK -- if the stock injectors are limited, what would be the optimal sizes to run with the NB200 kit to fully benefit from the 8psi or the 10 psi option? One of the options is having the kit setup for either 330cc or 450cc Bosch injectors instead of stock -- would the 330cc really be for 8psi and the 450cc for 10psi?
Bill
Bill
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05-15-2013, 04:45 PM
#18
A set of 600s or 800s and a standalone is your best bet. Ability to run E85 is lovely. I would suggest 800s since they are not big enough to harm idle yet are big enough to give you head room for E85.
330s should do it for 8psi but again if you're looking to buy now, buy a pair that you wont have to replace when the boost bug bites a month later.
18psi will probably recommend you the 1000idcs :P
330s should do it for 8psi but again if you're looking to buy now, buy a pair that you wont have to replace when the boost bug bites a month later.
18psi will probably recommend you the 1000idcs :P
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05-15-2013, 04:55 PM
#19
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Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: Portland, Oregon
Posts: 35
Total Cats: 4
I'm hoping the reflashed ecu will handle things better than a piggyback, but I'm still trying to find enough information from users to judge. There's always a way -- I prefer the idea of the reflashed ecu to FM's Voodoo box & timing wheel, but really I want to know how well each functions.
About the rust -- I'm not too concerned about that, although, being in rainy Oregon, it might make sense -- but they don't salt the roads here like they do in the midwest (or did when I lived in Milwaukee), and the bigger problem seems to be controlling the moss and other fungi that keeps growing on cars. My question really was whether the optional ceramic coating would have any practical effect on heat on this low boost system. If not, that's $150 that can be put to better use.
Bill
About the rust -- I'm not too concerned about that, although, being in rainy Oregon, it might make sense -- but they don't salt the roads here like they do in the midwest (or did when I lived in Milwaukee), and the bigger problem seems to be controlling the moss and other fungi that keeps growing on cars. My question really was whether the optional ceramic coating would have any practical effect on heat on this low boost system. If not, that's $150 that can be put to better use.
Bill
Ah the emissions... well i tried that option with a xede piggy back... hated it and scared the **** of my self after it started pinging...LOUD, so now i'm running a standalone and switch out the injectors and the ecu every 2 years. Its just one of those things you gotta do but i'll take good drivability for those 2 years compare to having the car run like **** any day. In my state they dont look under the hood so if the obd2 says good then you pass. So to pass emissions i just unhook the wastegate while i'm running on the stock ecu. My experience has been that the stock ecu doesnt like to do anything other than run a stock car.
If you want bulletproof setup then a standalone is a must.
As far as rust, i didnt see a problem in my kit when i redid the hoses last month.
If you want bulletproof setup then a standalone is a must.
As far as rust, i didnt see a problem in my kit when i redid the hoses last month.
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05-15-2013, 05:06 PM
#20
I'm hoping the reflashed ecu will handle things better than a piggyback, but I'm still trying to find enough information from users to judge. There's always a way -- I prefer the idea of the reflashed ecu to FM's Voodoo box & timing wheel, but really I want to know how well each functions.
About the rust -- I'm not too concerned about that, although, being in rainy Oregon, it might make sense -- but they don't salt the roads here like they do in the midwest (or did when I lived in Milwaukee), and the bigger problem seems to be controlling the moss and other fungi that keeps growing on cars. My question really was whether the optional ceramic coating would have any practical effect on heat on this low boost system. If not, that's $150 that can be put to better use.
Bill
About the rust -- I'm not too concerned about that, although, being in rainy Oregon, it might make sense -- but they don't salt the roads here like they do in the midwest (or did when I lived in Milwaukee), and the bigger problem seems to be controlling the moss and other fungi that keeps growing on cars. My question really was whether the optional ceramic coating would have any practical effect on heat on this low boost system. If not, that's $150 that can be put to better use.
Bill
The only threads i've seen about boosted miatas and reflashed ecus has been on the miatanet site that had to do with TDwRong and they were **** reviews.
I've never had personal experience with the voodoo boxes however i'm thankful that the previous owner of my turbo kit had a **** experience with it so i can get his almost new kit for a much cheaper price
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