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Old 05-19-2013, 10:52 PM   #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by triple88a View Post
So 180 with stock size injectors vs 230 with twice as big injectors? 800 extra cc of fuel to make another 50hp? Your math isnt too strong is it?
As much as I really don't want to keep this going, NB's run higher fuel pressure. I'm done.
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Old 05-20-2013, 03:05 AM   #42
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As much as I really don't want to keep this going, NB's run higher fuel pressure. I'm done.
40-43 psi
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Old 06-03-2013, 02:49 PM   #43
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I've been looking at this kit also. There are larger injectors available at extra cost. I have an 02 that has a stock motor with a 2 1/2" cat, mid pipe, and muffler (Goodwin Roadster sport). Which injectors would I need if I chose the 10 PSI kit? I have 93 octane available where I live. I assume they can tune the ECU to allow for the exhaust and larger injectors
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Old 06-03-2013, 07:36 PM   #44
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Stock ecu and boost? Nothing good can come from this.
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Old 06-03-2013, 09:52 PM   #45
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According to BEGi, if I am reading them right, the reflashed ECU will accommodate injectors up to 550cc; anything larger requires adding an Xede. It is not clear to me what happens if you change the injector size after the ECU is reflashed. From what BEGi has written, some changes will require the ECU to be flashed again.

On the other hand, it sounds like the size of the exhaust is programmed into the reflash, so changing the size may/will require the ECU to be reflashed again.

I need more information on what the different optional injectors and boost levels mean with this kit, especially if the boost level is directly related to the octane (so, 8psi for <93, 10psi only for 93+) or if the different injector sizes are also factors. (Everything is a factor, of course, but since the reflash programs in a certain set of specifications I'd like to have a better idea of what the different specification choices are, although there is always the option of getting a custom reflash.) AFAIK, the highest (street) octane in Oregon is 91, but even if 92/93 is available in some places I'd likely stick to 91 because I do too much driving out of area to count on finding anything higher.

This seems like a good kit to install and pretty much leave alone (so, make your choices and live with them). I think those inclined to tweak the system in different ways to eke out additional power will probably find it too limiting. One advantage the Flyin' Miata Voodoo kit has is that there is a direct (albeit expensive) upgrade path to the FMII system.

Bill

see: BEGi - - BEGi ECU ReFlash - NB_Miata_ECU_reflash
see: https://www.miataturbo.net/bellengin...reflash-53409/

Quote:
Originally Posted by tomiboy View Post
I've been looking at this kit also. There are larger injectors available at extra cost. I have an 02 that has a stock motor with a 2 1/2" cat, mid pipe, and muffler (Goodwin Roadster sport). Which injectors would I need if I chose the 10 PSI kit? I have 93 octane available where I live. I assume they can tune the ECU to allow for the exhaust and larger injectors

Last edited by NW Bill; 06-03-2013 at 10:05 PM.
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Old 06-03-2013, 09:53 PM   #46
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it doesn't accommodate any changes.

Injectors swap? reflash
larger exhaust? reflash
more boost? reflash

that's why it sucks so bad.

each of those times you gotta remove the ecu, ship it to begi, wait for them to mod it and flash it, send it back to you, and pay a ton of money for it in the process.
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Old 06-04-2013, 12:32 AM   #47
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Sure, the ECU can be programmed for bigger injectors.

I suspect a direct upgrade is cheaper by redoing the ecu, than buying a stand alone. The Meager Squint is working well on the NB, and it would get my vote. One can pick and choose.

The stock injector dwell times use up about 60% of the cycle time. A redo of ecu can use that remaining 40%, which offers 67% more fuel. That's good for 8 to 9 psi. I've not yet taken anyone for a spin at even 6 psi that they didn't find it remarkably quick.

Add the MS, bigger nozzles and a #2 IC and with the remote gate feature, and you will have plenty of potential to break gear boxes.

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Old 06-04-2013, 02:14 AM   #48
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Almost blew my motor on the damn xede. Not sure why but even though the table was showing 0 all across in the cells during my na test, the xede/stock ecu combo decided it was best to add 10-15 degrees at the 4k rpm or so where i heard very loud knocking. That was the last time i ran the xede.
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Old 06-04-2013, 09:22 AM   #49
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The XEDE is not part of the NB200 package.

Furthermore, one ought not to use the Xede in or around Chicago.

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Old 06-04-2013, 09:33 AM   #50
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What does xede have to do with chicago other than the "offroad only" staying legal speech?
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Old 06-06-2013, 12:19 AM   #51
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Same as the Xede has to do with the NB200......... not much.

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Old 06-06-2013, 02:53 AM   #52
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Absolutely correct however in order to run the nb200 kit you need to do something about fueling and timing... and thats why we're talking about options for the fuel and the timing such as the xede.
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Old 06-06-2013, 06:18 PM   #53
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According to BEGi, the NB200 kit is designed to get an otherwise stock NB to +/-200whp "out of the box." Since the kit has optional injectors, boost, and exhaust size, and the buyer specifies either 91 or 93 octane at the outset, one set of questions is about the effect of those options, and what can be changed without having to reflash the ecu again. From what I've read, my understanding, which may be incorrect, is that the injector size can be changed (up to 550cc) without a reflash, while changing the exhaust size will require another reflash, and unsure but suspect changing the (max) boost level or the octane means another reflash.

There is a second set of questions about what needs to be done if/when someone wants to increase the whp beyond +/-200 after installing the kit. And I think that is when the Xede (or other unit) comes into play, since, again, my understanding is that the max injector size the ecu reflash by itself can accomodate is 550cc (with 450cc the largest optional injector available in the NB200 kit).

It would be interesting to know what the potential power is for the NB200 with bigger injectors, an Xede/MS, and larger IC -- so, an upgrade path if/when 200whp is just not enough -- but if higher power is desired at the outset it is probably easier and cheaper to just get one of the other kits (not to mention DIY, since that is a whole different forum ).

Bill

see: http://www.bellengineering.net/produ...roducts_id=795

Last edited by NW Bill; 06-06-2013 at 06:31 PM.
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Old 06-06-2013, 09:31 PM   #54
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Originally Posted by NW Bill View Post
my understanding, which may be incorrect, is that the injector size can be changed (up to 550cc) without a reflash, while changing the exhaust size will require another reflash
You're correct that your understanding is incorrect. The stock ecu is programmed to add fuel. Say 6ms at x rpm x load and will keep adding 6ms. When you reflash the ecu for say 450cc injectors that 6ms goes down to 3.5 ms because now your injectors are bigger and can supply the fuel faster. Say you change the injectors to 550 without reflashing the ecu. All the sudden now you're adding 110cc extra fuel per injector at which point the narrowband will read too rich and will pop a CEL. The ecu has some leeway area. Meaning it can adjust few % here and there so instead of 3.5 ms, it can adjust to 3.3ms or 3.7ms. To continue the example say you're spraying 3.5ms and it's too rich (because you changed the injectors). Then it will try to spray less, 3.4ms; still too rich, then 3.3ms; still too rich. Once it hits the set limit (determined by the factory tunning) it will stop changing the fuel and turn on the check engine light.

It does make me giggle that there is no wideband in the kit yet there is a wideband bung

Also the kit does not have injectors.. it runs the stock injectors at **** lean mixture at wot.
"BEGI has created the NB 200 turbo system for a 200 whp kit utilizing the stock injectors, stock exhaust system,...

Last edited by triple88a; 06-06-2013 at 09:47 PM.
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Old 06-06-2013, 09:52 PM   #55
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The 550cc/min injector converts to #/hr by dividing by 11, is then 50 #/hr.

The brake specific for turbo/super applications is .55. Divide 50# by .55, and you have the power that size injector can support. In this case, 91 hp. The four injector engine can then expect to have enough fuel for 364 bhp. Keep in mind that's crank hp. The rwhp would then be about 10/15% less, or 309 rwhp.

We permit almost any substitutions, even though they often get us in trouble somehow. WHy not add the 300 hp IC and the right turbo?

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Old 06-06-2013, 10:53 PM   #56
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By your logic the stock injectors can only run 180ish crank hp (which is true as far as my experience has been)
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Old 06-06-2013, 11:19 PM   #57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by triple88a View Post
You're correct that your understanding is incorrect.... When you reflash the ecu for say 450cc injectors that 6ms goes down to 3.5 ms because now your injectors are bigger and can supply the fuel faster. Say you change the injectors to 550 without reflashing the ecu. All the sudden now you're adding 110cc extra fuel per injector at which point the narrowband will read too rich and will pop a CEL....

It does make me giggle that there is no wideband in the kit yet there is a wideband bung Also the kit does not have injectors.. it runs the stock injectors at **** lean mixture at wot. "BEGI has created the NB 200 turbo system for a 200 whp kit utilizing the stock injectors, stock exhaust system,...
I've been wrong before, and undoubtedly will be again. No big deal -- it's one of my less favorite ways of learning, but it is effective.

The NB200 has two optional injector sizes at $100/ea. See the photo. Since one of issues discussed earlier is the capacity of the stock injectors, it makes sense to go to a larger size. The question is what effect each option has. If changing the injector size requires a reflash each time, it is even more important to get this answered up front.

I've looked at a lot of turbo kits and few, if any, actually include a wideband, although most vendors strongly suggest adding one, hence the bung. It's always been part of my "not included but needed" list, regardless of which kit I get.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Corky Bell View Post
The 550cc/min injector converts to #/hr by dividing by 11, is then 50 #/hr.

The brake specific for turbo/super applications is .55. Divide 50# by .55, and you have the power that size injector can support. In this case, 91 hp. The four injector engine can then expect to have enough fuel for 364 bhp. Keep in mind that's crank hp. The rwhp would then be about 10/15% less, or 309 rwhp.

We permit almost any substitutions, even though they often get us in trouble somehow. WHy not add the 300 hp IC and the right turbo?

corky
If you know you want to end up at +/-300 whp from the outset it seems to make more sense to just get an S3 or S4 kit for what is probably about the same money (when the various optional costs are factored in). As an upgrade to an installed NB200 it would be an expensive path (partially offset by selling the parts removed from the original NB200 installation).

What interests me in the NB200 is that it's an OBD2, +/-200/whp system -- but that's based my assessment of what I want/need out of my Miata. So while an NB200 upgrade path is interesting to me, I'm really more interested in how the options listed with the kit affect it.

Same applies to the FM Voodoo II kit -- it's interesting that it can be upgraded to an FMII by little more than replacing the Voodoo box with the Hydra and getting larger injectors (assuming you started with the Garrett 2560R rather then the 2554R), even though this is not something I think I'd ever do.

Given what I want, what I especially like about the NB200 is the reflashed ECU -- although that seems to be the weak point for a lot of folks.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg BEGi NB200 fuel injector options.jpg (87.2 KB, 12 views)
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Old 06-07-2013, 09:39 AM   #58
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I will admit to not checking the fuel pressure of any of the nb200's. All have been dyno run and driveability developed with the necessary attention to air/fuel and done with the proper equipment.

Previous, perhaps a dozen checks, the NB cars have all read over 60 psi. We have made a tick over 200 with the rising rate regulator, but I was not real pleased with it.

We have been tempted to include the A/F meter, but the fear of adding price to the system always gets in the way.

Shed some wisdom on me: If brand x did not have an A/F meter and list price was $100 lower than my piece with the meter, how many folks would suggest that X was the better deal? The meter is $200+ cost.

Something hugely ironic here; I (the pro(?)) have spent nearly 40 years pleading the case of proper fuel systems and tuning with buyers that didn't have the foggiest idea what I was talking about, now you guys (the amateurs(?)) are on my case about supplying enough fuel. I am going to interpret the situation as I have been overly successful.

Regardless of the BS, with the awareness today of the need for tuning sharply, you should allay your fears and concerns even if the cost is another $400 for a set of injectors.

I disagree with the idea of buying an S4 or next up intend upgrades, as options added to the NB200 wind up better/cheaper than the other route. The 2560/intercooler size/dnpipe config/etc, all remain clear options.

The path to fuel system upgrades with a reflash or a megasquirt remains about 1/3rd the cost of the FM top line standalone ecu. Both seem to be clear cut paths.

Talking is easier for me than typing, if anyone cares to call.

corky
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Old 06-07-2013, 10:57 AM   #59
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Corky,

I get what NW Bill is saying, and I have the same questions. I tend to trust your years of experience so my question is if I order a NB200 system for my 2002, how can I best option it to produce the most RWHP/RWT and still use a reflashed OBDII compliant ECU? I have no plans on building my bottom end, so that tells me I can't exceed 250ish HP/TQ. I already have a 2 1/2" exhaust. 93 is available where I live currently. I have a 6 speed trans. What configuration of boost and injectors will get me the max power (under 250) and still keep a happy motor, and fiddle free installation? What might those HP/TQ numbers be? I intend to do no less than 7 track days a year. I will install a Koyo 55MM radiator and an oil cooler.

Thanks!!
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Old 07-23-2013, 02:36 PM   #60
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I emailed Stephanie at BEGi for some additional information on the NB200. Below is my email with her response. Since the red font she used doesn't show up here, I have converted it to bold italics.

For the NB200 installation manual, see: http://www.bellengineering.net/templ...ions_NB200.pdf

For the BEGi FAQ page, see: BEGi

Bill
================

Stephanie,

I have some questions about the NB200 turbo kit for the 1999-2005 Miata. There has been some discussion of this kit in the "Pre-Fab Turbo Kits" forum on the MiataTurbo website, with Corky posting a few messages addressing some questions, but others still remain. Just so you know, I will likely post at least the gist of whatever you tell me as part of the NB200 thread in the forum, since I know I am not the only one looking for additional information and clarification. (see https://www.miataturbo.net/prefabbed...rbo-kit-71558/)

No problem!

Fuel injectors:

In the options for the kit, under "Fueling Changes," there are two options other than the stock fuel injectors, for 330cc and 450cc Bosch injectors, at $100. Is this additional cost to have a set these injectors included in the kit, or just for the ECU reflash to accomodate these larger injectors which need to be sourced separately?

It is an additional cost. The reflash and NB200 are designed to work on the stock injectors. The larger injectors would allow for you to run more boost and make more power. Thus being an upgrade. Injectors would need to be purchased with the kit.

Using the base/standard ECU reflash, what is the maximum size of injectors supported?

With the reflash only, 450cc. If used with an Xede, 650cc.

If these need to be sourced elsewhere, does BEGi suggest any specific injectors in these sizes?

We can provide them for you. anything from a 330 cc to a 1000cc. We have PNP injectors with good drivability!

Is the cost $280 to have the ECU reflashed a second (or third, etc) time if larger injectors are installed later?

Correct. It may vary a little depending on the conversion rate from AUS to USD. But usually $250 to $280.

According to Corky (and the website), this kit, using stock injectors, will make 200whp when pushed, so essentially best case (ie, high octane gas, etc).

Correct. About 9 psi and stock injectors will do it. If you have a larger exhaust, you could achieve 200 whp at a lower boost level. Octane of gas would matter, but not a whole lot.

With the optional larger injectors installed, would 200whp be more easily achievable for those of us with lower octane gas (91 octane), etc?

Yes. Because it will allow you to run a higher boost level. I would install a larger exhaust before I did larger injectors though.

Is there any info on how much additional whp can be anticipated from by using the larger injectors? I know there are a lot of variables here, so am just looking for ballpark numbers.

Basically it would be a general figure on how much the boost was raised. About 10-20 whp per psi you increase the system. And depending on the other hardware installed on the car.

Boost levels:

This kit may be ordered with either of two boost levels, 8 and 10 psi. Presumably the higher boost will result in higher whp, everything else being equal.

Correct

What needs to be considered in selecting the appropriate boost level?

Exhaust system. If you have a 2.5” exhaust or larger, the 8 psi will get you to 200 whp with no problems.

A lot will depend on your goals with the kit and how much power you want to achieve. More can be had with the system, it is just a matter of adding on an exhaust, injectors and raising the boost.


What NB200 options should also be chosen?

**Should** being the operative word. LOL. This is my recommendation for reliability and do it once and forget it.

*A Garrett turbo if you want to stay CARB legal.

*Stainless Coolant lines if you want to do the coolant lines once and forget it. The rubber ones will heat fatigue after about 1 year of use.

*Stainless Oil Drain Line if you want to do the coolant lines once and forget it. The rubber ones will heat fatigue after about 1 year of use.

Ceramic coating is an upgrade to make the parts look nicer longer. It will affect performance, albeit minimally. The gauge mount if you plan to install a WB O2 also. Stainless downpipe is just to insulate the heat and send it out the tail pipe. The foot well area will be slightly cooler with a stainless downpipe.

The stock clutch will last you about 1 year at 8 psi – IF treated nicely and depending on current age..


Can the boost level be changed later without reflashing the ECU?

No. The ECU program is configured for that boost level only. If you raise the boost the car will run to lean. If you reduce the boost level the side effect is not as bad, but the car will run richer.

How high a boost level will the ECU support before it needs reflashing? (The website notes that the stock engine can safely go to 12 psi, with the proper fuel injectors.)

Correct.

BUT… do not confuse that with the stock ECU – by itself – can handle 6 psi. Because it can’t. The stock ECU – unmodified – is not programmed for boost and must have something done for fuel and timing control when under boost.


Reflashed ECU:

Once the ECU has been reflashed the first time, what is the range of tuning/adjustability it will accomodate?

The limits of the hardware and sensors on the engine. The MAF voltage, fuel injector size, etc.

What changes will require another reflash (and, again, will these always be $280 per reflash?)

Yes. So I would make multiple changes at once, or do it initially because the charge is $100 versus $280.

Changes include a larger exhaust, intake system, intercooler, or injectors.


Is the cost the same for a second reflash if there is one change or multiple changes at the same time, or is the cost per change?

One charge per program created/modified. One program can contain multiple changes though.

At the end, the NB200 installation manual says to go to the section on the engine management system, but there is no such section. Is something missing, or is this all simply handled by the ECU reflash for the 200whp base setup?

I am not finished with editing on it, as I think it is obvious by the lack of continuity of picture labeling. 

The ECU stuff will be added to it. But it is just the ECU reflash. Basically you will send me the ECU when you start taking parts off the car. I will rechip it and send it back. Once received, you have two weeks to get the car dyno tested for program verification. If the program is good, it is good. If there is a problem, I need dyno sheets and descriptions of said problem within the two weeks to get the program changed under warranty.


Exhaust:

Are the exhaust options for this kit for the ECU reflash or for appropriate connecting hardware, or both?

It is an item of information needed to make sure the ECU program created has enough fuel in it. A car with a larger exhaust will need more fuel than one with a stock exhaust. Mostly a percentage increase in fuel. Connecting hardware does not matter on the NB. The turbo downpipe will bolt up to a stock, 2.5” or 3” exhaust system. So it is universal in that respect.

Is it necessary to reflash the ECU again if the exhaust size is changed -- for example, going from a stock exhaust to 2.5" or from 2.5" to 3"?

Yep. The larger the exhaust the more fuel it needs.

Turbo & Wastegate:

If the kit is ordered with the standard Chinese turbo and wastegate, can these be later upgraded with a Garrett turbo and/or a TiAL wastegate just by adding them?

Yes, to both, for the TiAL Wastegate. Yes and no for the turbo. Yes, the parts are universal. No, in that we need to clock it, and alter the turbo from the way it comes from Garrett.

That is, will all the flanges match up?

Yes. All are standard T25 and Wastegate Flanges.

Can these be standard off-the-shelf parts from any source, or do they need to be the parts carried by BEGi?

Whether purchased thru us or purchased from another source, you will need to send the turbo to us to alter. We need to change multiple things on the turbo in order to fit our tubes, downpipe, etc.

Should changing these require another ECU reflash?

TiAL wastegate – as long as the boost level does not change- No.
Turbo - maybe. Depends on what size it was changed to.


In the discussion on the Miata Turbo forum, Corky suggested some upgrade paths for the NB200 for higher power levels (beyond those listed on the BEGi website). Will the website be detailing some of these in the future?

Mostly it would be the same with any other system. Larger intercooler, exhaust, injectors, better engine management, etc. This system would follow the upgrade path as any other turbo system.

Thanks,

Bill

You are welcome! Very good questions! Let me know if I sparked more questions. 
Stephanie

Last edited by NW Bill; 07-23-2013 at 03:52 PM.
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