DGR Coilovers - Anybody got their hands on these yet?
02-13-2011, 12:26 PM
#105
While I don't dogmatically follow anyone's advice, I think Dennis had it right. There are other decent shocks out there now, but low-buck Taiwanese stuff isn't it.
http://farnorthracing.com/autocross_secrets18.html
http://farnorthracing.com/autocross_secrets18.html
Remember this list:
* Bilstein
* Penske
* Koni
* Ohlins
* Sachs
* Dynamic Suspension
Not on this list? Almost certainly crap.
(The reason why JRZ and Moton aren't on the "good" list is simple - I never dynoed any. In the absence of any dyno information one way or the other, I choose to remain silent.)
Perhaps I should elaborate a little.
For a while, I was the shock engineer for a race team, and was designing, building, and rebuilding shock packages for customers. A big part of this service was running customer shocks on the dyno to set a baseline for where they were currently at. I dynoed a couple of hundred shocks, representing the spread of almost every shock brand extant.
(All the shock dyno plots on this page came off my dyno.)
Amazingly, save those brands mentioned in that earlier list, this was a non-stop parade of horror, including, but not limited to:
1. Adjusters that did absolutely nothing;
2. Adjusters that had more crosstalk effect than they had primary effect (ie, a rebound adjuster where 1 click made a 10% change in rebound and a 30% change in compression);
3. Adjusters that were nonlinear and exponential;
4. Adjusters that peaked in the middle of the adjustment range (in one example, "full hard" was softer than "full soft");
5. Shimstacks assembled upside-down;
6. Sets of shocks where a front and rear shimstack had been exchanged;
7. Shocks valved with forces that were insane (1600 lbs/in @ 3 in/sec was the record);
8. Shocks that faded so fast (as they warmed up) that no two runs were ever alike;
9. Shocks with adjusters that varied by 10% on the same shock at the same setting, depending on if you got there by going harder or softer; and
10. Shocks that adjusted rebound and compression in lockstep, but had so much compression that backing them down to reasonable levels made rebound way too soft (very common with the Japanese brands like GAB, JIC, Tein, etc)
The only shock brands I worked with that actually did what they said they would do were the shocks on that list - and even then, they had their quirks:
* Bilstein
* Penske
* Koni
* Ohlins
* Sachs
* Dynamic Suspension
Not on this list? Almost certainly crap.
(The reason why JRZ and Moton aren't on the "good" list is simple - I never dynoed any. In the absence of any dyno information one way or the other, I choose to remain silent.)
Perhaps I should elaborate a little.
For a while, I was the shock engineer for a race team, and was designing, building, and rebuilding shock packages for customers. A big part of this service was running customer shocks on the dyno to set a baseline for where they were currently at. I dynoed a couple of hundred shocks, representing the spread of almost every shock brand extant.
(All the shock dyno plots on this page came off my dyno.)
Amazingly, save those brands mentioned in that earlier list, this was a non-stop parade of horror, including, but not limited to:
1. Adjusters that did absolutely nothing;
2. Adjusters that had more crosstalk effect than they had primary effect (ie, a rebound adjuster where 1 click made a 10% change in rebound and a 30% change in compression);
3. Adjusters that were nonlinear and exponential;
4. Adjusters that peaked in the middle of the adjustment range (in one example, "full hard" was softer than "full soft");
5. Shimstacks assembled upside-down;
6. Sets of shocks where a front and rear shimstack had been exchanged;
7. Shocks valved with forces that were insane (1600 lbs/in @ 3 in/sec was the record);
8. Shocks that faded so fast (as they warmed up) that no two runs were ever alike;
9. Shocks with adjusters that varied by 10% on the same shock at the same setting, depending on if you got there by going harder or softer; and
10. Shocks that adjusted rebound and compression in lockstep, but had so much compression that backing them down to reasonable levels made rebound way too soft (very common with the Japanese brands like GAB, JIC, Tein, etc)
The only shock brands I worked with that actually did what they said they would do were the shocks on that list - and even then, they had their quirks:
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02-14-2011, 11:36 AM
#106
Newb
Join Date: Mar 2006
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I plugged the numbers onto a run for Showa OE 1999 front and rears dampers. Note: Lines are drawn by me as a representation of the graph on M.net and are at 25 clicks as that's where is started to make a difference to the stiffness.
Green: Street, Front
Orange: Track, Front
Blue: The level of damping I'd expect for a 350/250 set-up
The important thing here is rate. Bump rate is too flat, and not enough stiffness. Rebound rate is quite stiff, no blow-off whatsoever although I'd like to see a 0-6 in/sec range though. Bump/Rebound ratio is very high.
Phil
Green: Street, Front
Orange: Track, Front
Blue: The level of damping I'd expect for a 350/250 set-up
The important thing here is rate. Bump rate is too flat, and not enough stiffness. Rebound rate is quite stiff, no blow-off whatsoever although I'd like to see a 0-6 in/sec range though. Bump/Rebound ratio is very high.
Phil
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02-15-2011, 02:34 PM
#108
Junior Member
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Nashville, TN
Posts: 117
Total Cats: 1
I was looking through some old posts, and the dyno plots for the DGRs look an awful lot like the old plots for the fortune-auto coilovers that rspeed introduced a couple years back.
Not averaged though:
Anyone else notice that?
Not averaged though:
Anyone else notice that?
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02-15-2011, 02:38 PM
#109
Boost Czar
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yes, I already noticed that.
they also look a lot like the BC Racing curves, which look a lot like the Stance curves, which look a lot like the Megan curves...which all have the same 30 point adjustments, adjustable height bodies, and spherical lower bearings.
FWIW, I've driven on BC Racing coilovers and I'm fairly impressed with the comfort and performance levels out of a sub $1000 coilover. and these were on 10k/8k springs, the ride is a lot more comfortable than my Konis on 400/250# springs.
they also look a lot like the BC Racing curves, which look a lot like the Stance curves, which look a lot like the Megan curves...which all have the same 30 point adjustments, adjustable height bodies, and spherical lower bearings.
FWIW, I've driven on BC Racing coilovers and I'm fairly impressed with the comfort and performance levels out of a sub $1000 coilover. and these were on 10k/8k springs, the ride is a lot more comfortable than my Konis on 400/250# springs.
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02-15-2011, 02:40 PM
#110
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Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Nashville, TN
Posts: 117
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02-15-2011, 02:42 PM
#111
I'm Miserable!
Join Date: Feb 2010
Posts: 583
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Let's see how they look and perform and last IF they are in fact different from the generics that keep getting rebranded and internet marketed across the Webz…
I mean…there is more to developing a coilover than deciding on a new color and company name.
I mean…there is more to developing a coilover than deciding on a new color and company name.
Last edited by sjmarcy; 02-15-2011 at 02:56 PM.
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02-15-2011, 06:31 PM
#116
yes, I already noticed that.
they also look a lot like the BC Racing curves, which look a lot like the Stance curves, which look a lot like the Megan curves...which all have the same 30 point adjustments, adjustable height bodies, and spherical lower bearings.
FWIW, I've driven on BC Racing coilovers and I'm fairly impressed with the comfort and performance levels out of a sub $1000 coilover. and these were on 10k/8k springs, the ride is a lot more comfortable than my Konis on 400/250# springs.
they also look a lot like the BC Racing curves, which look a lot like the Stance curves, which look a lot like the Megan curves...which all have the same 30 point adjustments, adjustable height bodies, and spherical lower bearings.
FWIW, I've driven on BC Racing coilovers and I'm fairly impressed with the comfort and performance levels out of a sub $1000 coilover. and these were on 10k/8k springs, the ride is a lot more comfortable than my Konis on 400/250# springs.
sorry for the rant, point is, you can have a fun time without resorting to $4k coilover's and in-house shock dyno's.
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