Shock Tech, 101
#241
Originally Posted by Bernie
Not trying to sound like an *******, but I want people to keep coming back here for fresh information.
#243
NAGASE: Yes I am aware of the "compromise" dilemma, but I've a friend who went to Racing Gear shocks from Mugen shocks (on a Honda, yes, a little off topic), but their experience was exactly as I said... the RGs handled rough roads better, keeping the car composed.
Just because it is a race track (or autox), does not mean it is smooth (as Justin's autox plot shows)... and not to mention the KONI RACE vs MONO FLEX point, was not something I made up, but direct input from a Miata owner who has tracked their turbo miata on both suspension setups.
Just because it is a race track (or autox), does not mean it is smooth (as Justin's autox plot shows)... and not to mention the KONI RACE vs MONO FLEX point, was not something I made up, but direct input from a Miata owner who has tracked their turbo miata on both suspension setups.
Doesn't mean that a good shock is good in general though.
#245
It seems you're trying to shoot down ANY discussion at all of a shock that works on the track and can be driven home on. I don't think that is the case and I'm here to learn what the deficiencies are of what I have to avoid with my future setups.
#246
Do you have an ultimate point? I must be missing it. At the same time, what's comfortable to me may be uncomfortable to you. Both my cars have coil-overs with high spring rates and both cars have fixed back bucket seats, and both cars have stiff engine mounts (poly filled on one, and the miata is getting a hybrid setup eventually)-- if that's any indication on what is tolerable and "comfortable" to me.
Comfort is one factor, and as I've said before, it's always dependent upon setup of car and preferences of driver.
#247
To me, I'm comfortable if the car can handle bumps and maintain grip. In that regard, whether you're WOT through a bumpy sweeper at 90+, or doing 70+ on a bumpy freeway on the way back home, a shock should be able to keep the tire planted. I think a "good" shock should have no problem doing one AND the other.
Maybe we just have to wait until Bernie is ready to lead the discussion towards shock tuning...
#248
Okay, and I concur, it just seems you directed towards me solely as if to correct a statement I made. (I'm here to learn, so correct me directly if so).
To me, I'm comfortable if the car can handle bumps and maintain grip. In that regard, whether you're WOT through a bumper sweeper at 80+, or doing 70+ on the freeway on the way back home. A shock should be able to keep the tire planted.
Maybe we just have to wait until Bernie is ready to lead the discussion towards shock tuning...
To me, I'm comfortable if the car can handle bumps and maintain grip. In that regard, whether you're WOT through a bumper sweeper at 80+, or doing 70+ on the freeway on the way back home. A shock should be able to keep the tire planted.
Maybe we just have to wait until Bernie is ready to lead the discussion towards shock tuning...
I pretty much said the same thing. Firm is good, just not crashing or jarring.
#249
Here's some Bilstein videos:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W4ZZY...eature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IKPZ8...eature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QpQNzzy_o_k
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W4ZZY...eature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IKPZ8...eature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QpQNzzy_o_k
Last edited by wannafbody; 11-22-2010 at 10:50 PM.
#250
I have my own synthetic. I have it made by a company out of the Midwest. The oil I use was a blend that Petty Enterprises developed.
It comes the way light viscosity oil should in that it is rated by centistokes. I have a #5 that is equal to a standard 2.5 wt., and I have a #9 that is equal to a standard 5 wt.
The standard oil I use, however, is the Bilstein. I have to use it for the spec miata shocks, and it's actually a pretty good oil. I use it in all of my street/dual purpose shocks.
The synthetic is reserved for the race shocks. Nobody wants to pay the difference for street use.
It comes the way light viscosity oil should in that it is rated by centistokes. I have a #5 that is equal to a standard 2.5 wt., and I have a #9 that is equal to a standard 5 wt.
The standard oil I use, however, is the Bilstein. I have to use it for the spec miata shocks, and it's actually a pretty good oil. I use it in all of my street/dual purpose shocks.
The synthetic is reserved for the race shocks. Nobody wants to pay the difference for street use.
#254
The requirements for a high performance damper fluid are quite a bit different than virtually any other part of a passenger car. Like Bernie, I'm not an expert in this but basically, no you don't want to just dump lightweight motor oil in there. I'm sure the damper would function more or less but definitely not at optimum. No more than dumping 20w damper fluid in your engine would be a good idea.
__________________
#255
The requirements for a high performance damper fluid are quite a bit different than virtually any other part of a passenger car. Like Bernie, I'm not an expert in this but basically, no you don't want to just dump lightweight motor oil in there. I'm sure the damper would function more or less but definitely not at optimum. No more than dumping 20w damper fluid in your engine would be a good idea.
#256
To me, I'm comfortable if the car can handle bumps and maintain grip. In that regard, whether you're WOT through a bumpy sweeper at 90+, or doing 70+ on a bumpy freeway on the way back home, a shock should be able to keep the tire planted. I think a "good" shock should have no problem doing one AND the other.
Maybe we just have to wait until Bernie is ready to lead the discussion towards shock tuning...
Maybe we just have to wait until Bernie is ready to lead the discussion towards shock tuning...
"When I spoke with Bernie, I told him I would be primarily driving the car on the street with a half dozen or so autox events a year also a consideration. I installed them in April and have 6 months on them with about 2.5K miles and 7 autox events. Current setup is 13F/13.5R ride ht, 1 1/8th tubular front bar, 11mm rear bar, 36mm/46mm FCM bumps, and NB tophats. Car rides very well considering the spring rates being used. The only time the spring rates start to get irritating is on broken pavement/frost heaves. The autox events I travel to are between 100 and 210 miles away so a decent ride was very important as well as the best car/wheel control.
Overall I am very happy and have no regrets. My car handles very well and is very tolerable on the street. My wife also enjoys driving the car and doesn't complain about the ride. Friends that have driven the car typically say the ride is pretty stiff without being harsh. Autox performance has been very good allowing me to win about half the events I was in this year with a FTD as well."
Here's the link if you want to dig a bit deeper:
http://forum.miata.net/vb/showpost.p...6&postcount=97
#258
I thought we were "over" the fact that shocks are always a compromise. On the tracks I can go to, they have their share of bumps. I've read Emilio name them (SOW, BW) as one of the best tracks to test your shocks because of it. So because of this, a "good" (to me) shock should be able to handle bumps and road irregularities as I would find similar bumps on the street and on the track.
I read in a link someone else provided that as spring rate increases, less bump valving is needed. I can't find it now, and you don't have to believe me anyway, but it said something along the lines that on the bump stroke, the shock is working WITH the spring and on the rebound stroke, the shock is working AGAINST the spring, therefore needing a higher ratio towards rebound.
#259
I don't believe it is asking too much for a shock to handle those two situations, if that's what you are implying-- I think a better shock will handle bumps more comfortably than a shock that is not as good.
I thought we were "over" the fact that shocks are always a compromise. On the tracks I can go to, they have their share of bumps. I've read Emilio name them (SOW, BW) as one of the best tracks to test your shocks because of it. So because of this, a "good" (to me) shock should be able to handle bumps and road irregularities as I would find similar bumps on the street and on the track.
I thought we were "over" the fact that shocks are always a compromise. On the tracks I can go to, they have their share of bumps. I've read Emilio name them (SOW, BW) as one of the best tracks to test your shocks because of it. So because of this, a "good" (to me) shock should be able to handle bumps and road irregularities as I would find similar bumps on the street and on the track.
#260
I don't believe it is asking too much for a shock to handle those two situations, if that's what you are implying-- I think a better shock will handle bumps more comfortably than a shock that is not as good.
I thought we were "over" the fact that shocks are always a compromise. On the tracks I can go to, they have their share of bumps. I've read Emilio name them (SOW, BW) as one of the best tracks to test your shocks because of it. So because of this, a "good" (to me) shock should be able to handle bumps and road irregularities as I would find similar bumps on the street and on the track.
I read in a link someone else provided that as spring rate increases, less bump valving is needed. I can't find it now, and you don't have to believe me anyway, but it said something along the lines that on the bump stroke, the shock is working WITH the spring and on the rebound stroke, the shock is working AGAINST the spring, therefore needing a higher ratio towards rebound.
I thought we were "over" the fact that shocks are always a compromise. On the tracks I can go to, they have their share of bumps. I've read Emilio name them (SOW, BW) as one of the best tracks to test your shocks because of it. So because of this, a "good" (to me) shock should be able to handle bumps and road irregularities as I would find similar bumps on the street and on the track.
I read in a link someone else provided that as spring rate increases, less bump valving is needed. I can't find it now, and you don't have to believe me anyway, but it said something along the lines that on the bump stroke, the shock is working WITH the spring and on the rebound stroke, the shock is working AGAINST the spring, therefore needing a higher ratio towards rebound.