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Old 11-22-2010, 07:15 PM   #241
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Originally Posted by greeenteeee View Post
I've never had KONIs as they posed problems on my other car, but I'd imagine the KONI RACE shocks would be comfortable on the street if it were a "good" shock.
They are pretty good on the street. In fact, they were better for me on the street than Koni Sports. And many solo national championships have been won on Koni RACE. They're a good shock... but it doesn't mean they can't be better.

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Originally Posted by Bernie
Not trying to sound like an *******, but I want people to keep coming back here for fresh information.
Don't worry, you don't. It's a pet peeve of mine when threads get cluttered up with repeat or irrelevant information (like this post ).
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Old 11-22-2010, 07:21 PM   #242
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Bernie, discuss montube gas pressure. I think Bilstein uses about 350# pressure. What do you use and why?
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Old 11-22-2010, 07:27 PM   #243
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Originally Posted by greeenteeee View Post
NAGASE: Yes I am aware of the "compromise" dilemma, but I've a friend who went to Racing Gear shocks from Mugen shocks (on a Honda, yes, a little off topic), but their experience was exactly as I said... the RGs handled rough roads better, keeping the car composed.

Just because it is a race track (or autox), does not mean it is smooth (as Justin's autox plot shows)... and not to mention the KONI RACE vs MONO FLEX point, was not something I made up, but direct input from a Miata owner who has tracked their turbo miata on both suspension setups.
And you'll see people who went from stock suspension to anything not blown out that they'll be better on track and the road. A better designed system can do multiple things better.

Doesn't mean that a good shock is good in general though.
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Old 11-22-2010, 07:28 PM   #244
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Read the thread around post #26. This talks about the gas pressure. If you still have a question about it after that, please pm me.

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Originally Posted by wannafbody View Post
Bernie, discuss montube gas pressure. I think Bilstein uses about 350# pressure. What do you use and why?
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Old 11-22-2010, 08:11 PM   #245
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And you'll see people who went from stock suspension to anything not blown out that they'll be better on track and the road. A better designed system can do multiple things better.

Doesn't mean that a good shock is good in general though.
Do you have an ultimate point? I must be missing it. At the same time, what's comfortable to me may be uncomfortable to you. Both my cars have coil-overs with high spring rates and both cars have fixed back bucket seats, and both cars have stiff engine mounts (poly filled on one, and the miata is getting a hybrid setup eventually)-- if that's any indication on what is tolerable and "comfortable" to me.

It seems you're trying to shoot down ANY discussion at all of a shock that works on the track and can be driven home on. I don't think that is the case and I'm here to learn what the deficiencies are of what I have to avoid with my future setups.
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Old 11-22-2010, 08:16 PM   #246
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Originally Posted by greeenteeee View Post
Do you have an ultimate point? I must be missing it. At the same time, what's comfortable to me may be uncomfortable to you. Both my cars have coil-overs with high spring rates and both cars have fixed back bucket seats, and both cars have stiff engine mounts (poly filled on one, and the miata is getting a hybrid setup eventually)-- if that's any indication on what is tolerable and "comfortable" to me.
Yes. My point was that a good race shock does not equate directly to a good street shock. I've said that many times.

Comfort is one factor, and as I've said before, it's always dependent upon setup of car and preferences of driver.
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Old 11-22-2010, 08:23 PM   #247
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Yes. My point was that a good race shock does not equate directly to a good street shock. I've said that many times.

Comfort is one factor, and as I've said before, it's always dependent upon setup of car and preferences of driver.
Okay, and I concur, it just seems you directed towards me solely as if to correct a statement I made. (I'm here to learn, so correct me directly if so).

To me, I'm comfortable if the car can handle bumps and maintain grip. In that regard, whether you're WOT through a bumpy sweeper at 90+, or doing 70+ on a bumpy freeway on the way back home, a shock should be able to keep the tire planted. I think a "good" shock should have no problem doing one AND the other.

Maybe we just have to wait until Bernie is ready to lead the discussion towards shock tuning...
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Old 11-22-2010, 08:34 PM   #248
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Originally Posted by greeenteeee View Post
Okay, and I concur, it just seems you directed towards me solely as if to correct a statement I made. (I'm here to learn, so correct me directly if so).

To me, I'm comfortable if the car can handle bumps and maintain grip. In that regard, whether you're WOT through a bumper sweeper at 80+, or doing 70+ on the freeway on the way back home. A shock should be able to keep the tire planted.

Maybe we just have to wait until Bernie is ready to lead the discussion towards shock tuning...
I'm talking to Bernie about a set of shocks tuned for me, and when he asked if I mind if a firm ride for the street.

I pretty much said the same thing. Firm is good, just not crashing or jarring.
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Old 11-22-2010, 11:30 PM   #249
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Last edited by wannafbody; 11-22-2010 at 11:50 PM.
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Old 11-23-2010, 10:47 AM   #250
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I have my own synthetic. I have it made by a company out of the Midwest. The oil I use was a blend that Petty Enterprises developed.

It comes the way light viscosity oil should in that it is rated by centistokes. I have a #5 that is equal to a standard 2.5 wt., and I have a #9 that is equal to a standard 5 wt.

The standard oil I use, however, is the Bilstein. I have to use it for the spec miata shocks, and it's actually a pretty good oil. I use it in all of my street/dual purpose shocks.

The synthetic is reserved for the race shocks. Nobody wants to pay the difference for street use.


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Originally Posted by Thucydides View Post
I agree, Hustler, a properly valved shock is a thing of beauty.

Bernie, what kind of shock oil do you use and why? What are the options?
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Old 11-23-2010, 11:21 AM   #251
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Why not just dump some Mobil 1 5W20 in a shock?
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Old 11-23-2010, 11:31 AM   #252
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I know there are a lot of things to consider with oil such as expansion rates, viscosity break down and anti-foaming among others.

However, I am not an oil expert so I leave that to the guys I know can do a better job.


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Why not just dump some Mobil 1 5W20 in a shock?
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Old 11-23-2010, 11:42 AM   #253
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Originally Posted by Bernie S. View Post
I know there are a lot of things to consider with oil such as expansion rates, viscosity break down and anti-foaming among others.

However, I am not an oil expert so I leave that to the guys I know can do a better job.
That's smart business-admitting that you don't know all the answers but you can find someone who does.
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Old 11-23-2010, 01:20 PM   #254
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Originally Posted by wannafbody View Post
Why not just dump some Mobil 1 5W20 in a shock?
The requirements for a high performance damper fluid are quite a bit different than virtually any other part of a passenger car. Like Bernie, I'm not an expert in this but basically, no you don't want to just dump lightweight motor oil in there. I'm sure the damper would function more or less but definitely not at optimum. No more than dumping 20w damper fluid in your engine would be a good idea.
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Old 11-23-2010, 02:10 PM   #255
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Originally Posted by emilio700 View Post
The requirements for a high performance damper fluid are quite a bit different than virtually any other part of a passenger car. Like Bernie, I'm not an expert in this but basically, no you don't want to just dump lightweight motor oil in there. I'm sure the damper would function more or less but definitely not at optimum. No more than dumping 20w damper fluid in your engine would be a good idea.
All oils are specially produced with different additives and levels of additives for the specific purpose. With shock oils, one of the big design concerns is cavitation. For supercharger oils it is atomization....and so on. Bottom line, use the oil specified for the purpose.
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Old 11-23-2010, 08:12 PM   #256
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Originally Posted by greeenteeee View Post
To me, I'm comfortable if the car can handle bumps and maintain grip. In that regard, whether you're WOT through a bumpy sweeper at 90+, or doing 70+ on a bumpy freeway on the way back home, a shock should be able to keep the tire planted. I think a "good" shock should have no problem doing one AND the other.

Maybe we just have to wait until Bernie is ready to lead the discussion towards shock tuning...
I'm with you in that I like to have my cake and eat it too. Here's a response to a thread on Miata.net from some other fellow which might shed some light on your questions:

"When I spoke with Bernie, I told him I would be primarily driving the car on the street with a half dozen or so autox events a year also a consideration. I installed them in April and have 6 months on them with about 2.5K miles and 7 autox events. Current setup is 13F/13.5R ride ht, 1 1/8th tubular front bar, 11mm rear bar, 36mm/46mm FCM bumps, and NB tophats. Car rides very well considering the spring rates being used. The only time the spring rates start to get irritating is on broken pavement/frost heaves. The autox events I travel to are between 100 and 210 miles away so a decent ride was very important as well as the best car/wheel control.

Overall I am very happy and have no regrets. My car handles very well and is very tolerable on the street. My wife also enjoys driving the car and doesn't complain about the ride. Friends that have driven the car typically say the ride is pretty stiff without being harsh. Autox performance has been very good allowing me to win about half the events I was in this year with a FTD as well."


Here's the link if you want to dig a bit deeper:

http://forum.miata.net/vb/showpost.p...6&postcount=97
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Old 11-23-2010, 08:13 PM   #257
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i'd disagree with that. As spring rates increase, so do ride frequencies and therefore critical damping. Bump damping must go up also.

Phil
+1 imo.

Fwiw.
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Old 11-23-2010, 08:39 PM   #258
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I'm with you in that I like to have my cake and eat it too. Here's a response to a thread on Miata.net from some other fellow which might shed some light on your questions:
I don't believe it is asking too much for a shock to handle those two situations, if that's what you are implying-- I think a better shock will handle bumps more comfortably than a shock that is not as good.

I thought we were "over" the fact that shocks are always a compromise. On the tracks I can go to, they have their share of bumps. I've read Emilio name them (SOW, BW) as one of the best tracks to test your shocks because of it. So because of this, a "good" (to me) shock should be able to handle bumps and road irregularities as I would find similar bumps on the street and on the track.
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Originally Posted by JasonC SBB View Post
+1 imo.

Fwiw.
I read in a link someone else provided that as spring rate increases, less bump valving is needed. I can't find it now, and you don't have to believe me anyway, but it said something along the lines that on the bump stroke, the shock is working WITH the spring and on the rebound stroke, the shock is working AGAINST the spring, therefore needing a higher ratio towards rebound.
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Old 11-23-2010, 08:40 PM   #259
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Originally Posted by greeenteeee View Post
I don't believe it is asking too much for a shock to handle those two situations, if that's what you are implying-- I think a better shock will handle bumps more comfortably than a shock that is not as good.

I thought we were "over" the fact that shocks are always a compromise. On the tracks I can go to, they have their share of bumps. I've read Emilio name them (SOW, BW) as one of the best tracks to test your shocks because of it. So because of this, a "good" (to me) shock should be able to handle bumps and road irregularities as I would find similar bumps on the street and on the track.
We'll find out soonish. Going to be ordering a custom revalve from SD with 700/400 springs, seeing how they compare.
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Old 11-23-2010, 08:43 PM   #260
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Originally Posted by greeenteeee View Post
I don't believe it is asking too much for a shock to handle those two situations, if that's what you are implying-- I think a better shock will handle bumps more comfortably than a shock that is not as good.

I thought we were "over" the fact that shocks are always a compromise. On the tracks I can go to, they have their share of bumps. I've read Emilio name them (SOW, BW) as one of the best tracks to test your shocks because of it. So because of this, a "good" (to me) shock should be able to handle bumps and road irregularities as I would find similar bumps on the street and on the track.

I read in a link someone else provided that as spring rate increases, less bump valving is needed. I can't find it now, and you don't have to believe me anyway, but it said something along the lines that on the bump stroke, the shock is working WITH the spring and on the rebound stroke, the shock is working AGAINST the spring, therefore needing a higher ratio towards rebound.
Don't be so defensive, greeentreee, and re-read my post. Have you been so beat down on this thread that you can't even tell when someone's supporting your position?
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