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New Cheap Aluminum wing option

 
Old 03-15-2018, 02:36 PM
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Do you guys thing it would be beneficial to run the BFW Spoiler under the 9LR ****. Would probably have to trim the outside edges of the spoiler im guessing to clear the mounts then just run a real low AOA.
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Old 03-15-2018, 02:40 PM
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Probably more beneficial at that point to sell the BFW, and pool that money with what you'd spend on the 9LR setup, work one weekend of OT, and get the Singular setup.
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Old 03-15-2018, 02:45 PM
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There are definitely benefits of running the BFW spoiler at a lower AOA under a wing, reduced drag with similar downforce levels. How much? Not sure, find out and let us know! Moti insists it's a good combo and worth it to run under a wing, all of his builds either do this, or at least have some sort of lower AOA spoiler (whether it's his hinged version or not) trailing off the trunk.
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Old 03-15-2018, 02:45 PM
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Im salary no OT ever. I ordered the spoiler the day before this post and it gets delivered tomorrow. The singular wing has been on the list for a while but was considering the same combo with spoiler based on what Moti, Emilio and The Pass have done on their cars. I am by no means an aero expert.
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Old 03-15-2018, 03:24 PM
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Originally Posted by concealer404 View Post
Probably more beneficial at that point to sell the BFW, and pool that money with what you'd spend on the 9LR setup, work one weekend of OT, and get the Singular setup.
If I made that much I'd have a TSE kit on a built motor and a damn trailer to haul my car with the Singular wing on it. The Singular wing is literally double what my rent is. Living in a state with a low cost of living is nice, except you get paid equivalent to your low cost of living.
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Old 03-15-2018, 03:32 PM
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Originally Posted by soot View Post
If I made that much I'd have a TSE kit on a built motor and a damn trailer to haul my car with the Singular wing on it. The Singular wing is literally double what my rent is. Living in a state with a low cost of living is nice, except you get paid equivalent to your low cost of living.
Your situation maybe different. But the point was that (and who knows, maybe there's analysis out there to prove me wrong) you'd be better office spending marginally more money for a Singular setup than BOTH a BFW and 9LR. Feel me?

I say that as someone who has an "alternative" wing setup, myself.

But i also believe in "if i can save X amount, i can also save Y amount, it just might take longer."
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Old 03-15-2018, 03:36 PM
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Originally Posted by concealer404 View Post
Your situation maybe different. But the point was that (and who knows, maybe there's analysis out there to prove me wrong) you'd be better office spending marginally more money for a Singular setup than BOTH a BFW and 9LR. Feel me?

I say that as someone who has an "alternative" wing setup, myself.

But i also believe in "if i can save X amount, i can also save Y amount, it just might take longer."
I agree completely with the above. My question was more geared towards aerodynamic benefit rather than money. Would you see more aero gains by using both similar to what many have done or would it just not be worth it to make the Spoiler and Wing play nice together.
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Old 03-15-2018, 03:43 PM
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Originally Posted by concealer404 View Post
Your situation maybe different. But the point was that (and who knows, maybe there's analysis out there to prove me wrong) you'd be better office spending marginally more money for a Singular setup than BOTH a BFW and 9LR. Feel me?
Ah, my bad. Makes sense.

I made my own BBFW style spoiler, so I wouldn't be able to sell it for much, so I might as well run both together. I totally get your point though. In my case I'm going to go with 9LR simply because the additional money saved could go towards other parts the car needs to balance things out, and to grasp other low hanging (performance) fruit.
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Old 03-15-2018, 04:01 PM
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I think I'm going to run both at some point, mostly because I don't want to run a big **** on the street. Jack up the spoiler a bit on the street to balance out the splitter a bit, then lower it down and bolt on the wing for the track.
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Old 03-15-2018, 04:08 PM
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Originally Posted by acedeuce802 View Post
I think I'm going to run both at some point, mostly because I don't want to run a big **** on the street. Jack up the spoiler a bit on the street to balance out the splitter a bit, then lower it down and bolt on the wing for the track.

THIS. Exactly my thought. Seems like a really good way to go.
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Old 03-15-2018, 04:54 PM
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Originally Posted by concealer404 View Post
Your situation maybe different. But the point was that (and who knows, maybe there's analysis out there to prove me wrong) you'd be better office spending marginally more money for a Singular setup than BOTH a BFW and 9LR. Feel me?

I say that as someone who has an "alternative" wing setup, myself.

But i also believe in "if i can save X amount, i can also save Y amount, it just might take longer."
Or just wait for a used 9LR wing to show up in a "For Sale" section
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Old 03-16-2018, 09:04 AM
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Originally Posted by acedeuce802 View Post
I think I'm going to run both at some point, mostly because I don't want to run a big **** on the street. Jack up the spoiler a bit on the street to balance out the splitter a bit, then lower it down and bolt on the wing for the track.
I'm in a similar boat. Currently have a BFW spoiler and its not enough to balance out my 4" splitter. Wouldn't mind being able to lower the AOA on the BFW spoiler, install an airfoil, and go for track days. I don't necessary mind having a big wing on the car for the street, but I'm guessing it'll give unwarranted attention
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Old 03-16-2018, 12:54 PM
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Edit: 9LRs CFD was done on a car (LMP car) and APR's was done in free air, so this is not a true comparison...

So I did a bit more reading, This wing may be a nice entry level option, but it is nowhere near the GT250. It's not the 80% performance at less cost option I was hoping it was.

Elan's testing:
  • [email protected]*AOA DF lbs-250 drag-58
  • 150mph @7*AOA DF lbs-140 drag-37
  • 150mph @4*AOA DF lbs-70 drag-17.5
APRs charts are below:





The 9LR wing is a 4.3 Lift to drag ratio for comparison. Even the GTC200 completely destroys the 9LR wing in lift to drag.

Last edited by soot; 03-16-2018 at 02:59 PM.
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Old 03-16-2018, 01:39 PM
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The comparison on CFD data isn't completely valid, as the APR wing was modeled hanging in free air, while the Elan wing was mounted on the back of an NP01. Not defending the 9LR wing, but just pointing out it's not an apples to apples comparison.
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Old 03-16-2018, 01:40 PM
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the 9lr wing was not tested in open air as the apr was. But it still wont be near as good.

edit: milkman beat me to it.

Last edited by MiataMan00; 03-16-2018 at 02:05 PM.
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Old 03-16-2018, 02:57 PM
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Originally Posted by milkmandan View Post
The comparison on CFD data isn't completely valid, as the APR wing was modeled hanging in free air, while the Elan wing was mounted on the back of an NP01. Not defending the 9LR wing, but just pointing out it's not an apples to apples comparison.
Originally Posted by MiataMan00 View Post
the 9lr wing was not tested in open air as the apr was. But it still wont be near as good.

edit: milkman beat me to it.
Cool, thanks guys. I'm a complete aero noob. Trying to learn as I go.

9LR did state that their wing produced more downforce at 2° AoA than their old GTC200 did at 15°AoA based off of how much the car started pushing, and that completely contradicts what I was seeing from the CFD. That being said, the GTC-200 is 60.5" and the wing on the 9LR car was 66"... Apples to oranges all around
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Old 03-16-2018, 03:16 PM
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CFD in general is very inaccurate without good correlation, and is most useful in a comparative sense. If someone did a CFD comparo of both wings in the same environment, same boundary conditions, etc, the percent difference would be valid. But to use one persons CFD to say it makes "xx" amount of downforce, and someone else's CFD to say theirs makes "yy" amount of downforce doesn't mean a whole lot. There's a lot of apples to oranges in the aero world.

Johnny's back-to-back real-world test is a better approach, because straight line speed and aero balance is a very good determining factor. The downside to the testing is that the GTC200 was being used out of it's element. 3D wings aren't magic wings that have great L/D's. The attractiveness to 3d wings is that the center section contours to the air flowing from the rear window area. So you're taking advantage of the downward sloping air on the window, and the straight air on the sides, maximizing airflow around the whole width of the wing. When a 3d wing is placed up in "clean" air like in the test, if the outside edges are angled at an appropriate AOA, the center section will be producing lift and counteracting the downforce on the outer edges. If the center section is at an appropriate AOA, the inside will be producing excessive drag. If it's somewhere in the middle, the wing will just be meh. A GT250 would've been a more appropriate contender (or a GTC200 mounted appropriately).
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Old 03-16-2018, 06:51 PM
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Originally Posted by acedeuce802 View Post
Johnny's back-to-back real-world test
When did that happen?
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Old 03-16-2018, 06:59 PM
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Originally Posted by doward View Post
When did that happen?
From their store and FB page:

"The first test of the 'big ****' at Road Atlanta, the wing was set to 2 degrees of angle of attack. The results? We increased top speed to 159mph (157 mph with the 3d carbon Wing), and made so much down-force the car under steered heavily, something that the 3d wing can't do at a 15 degrees angle of attack. After setting our personal best lap time at Road Atlanta (1:32.85)"

A couple of mph improvement over a GTC-200 in free air (they confirmed it was mounted high, same height as the 9LR wing). Track temps were the same both days. The time barely changed, but they said the car was pushing a ton, so it's a bit of a toss up. It is cheaper than the GTC-200 though...


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Old 03-20-2018, 01:28 PM
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Aero merits of said big **** aside, 160mph at road Atlanta in a Miata is insane.
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