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Bellengineering - Miata Accessories Ordering and General Information Stephanie Turner 830-438-2890 ext. 103 [email protected]

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Old 08-06-2008, 04:46 PM   #1
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Default Zoom 3 questions

Stephanie,

Thanks to the responses to my emails. I am excited about a new lower cost fuel/timing option for the NB's. I have some more questions about the Zoom 3but I figured that I would start a thread, as I can imagine others will have the same type of questions I do. I am trying to get everything prepared for my 99 in advance of the release, so that when it is released I can purchase one and get right to the install. That said, here they are in no proper order:

Do I have to cut into the harness to install this or will there be an adapter harness so that it is just plug and play?

If it does not have a wideband 02 sensor input, how do you adjust AFR values? How does it log true AFR values so that we know how/where to tune for proper AFR's?

Does it have the ability to log and view runs for tuning?

Any software or PC connect cables that I will need to buy?

Are there going to be base maps to start with for a few basic setups? Base map for nonturbo for inital setup?

Can we install and get it running on a naturally aspirated car before we turbo to eliminate another troubleshooting variable?

Do we need to add a Cam Angle Sensor or does it work with stock timing? How does it pull timing?

Is there anything else fuel/electrical/electronics-wise that I will need to purchase to run the Zoom 3?

Because 305cc Toyota Supra injectors are readily available for around $40-$50 for the set and 270cc MSM injectors are less available and much more expensive, will you be testing the unit with the 305's? I have been told that the Zoom 3 is rated for 270's max. What actually limits it to the 270's?

Is a detailed installation guide done for the first time installer?

Thanks,

John
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Old 08-06-2008, 05:26 PM   #2
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Originally Posted by Stein View Post
Thanks to the responses to my emails. I am excited about a new lower cost fuel/timing option for the NB's. I have some more questions about the Zoom 3but I figured that I would start a thread, as I can imagine others will have the same type of questions I do. I am trying to get everything prepared for my 99 in advance of the release, so that when it is released I can purchase one and get right to the install. That said, here they are in no proper order:

Do I have to cut into the harness to install this or will there be an adapter harness so that it is just plug and play?
You can do either. We do have a PNP harness we can pre-wire it into. Or you can cut wires and save a few pennies. Entirely up to you.

Quote:
If it does not have a wideband 02 sensor input, how do you adjust AFR values? How does it log true AFR values so that we know how/where to tune for proper AFR's?
The Zoom3 does not have wideband integration. You will have to log the AFR's thru the sensor itself to get the AFR's and know what to change.

Fuel is adjusted thru the software, along with the timing, and TPS.

Quote:
Does it have the ability to log and view runs for tuning?
No it does not.

Quote:
Any software or PC connect cables that I will need to buy?
It will come with a USB cable. So nothing to buy there.

Quote:
Are there going to be base maps to start with for a few basic setups? Base map for nonturbo for initial setup?
Base Maps for a turbo, yes. For a non turbo, the unit will act as if it is not there. We have a few maps off of my unit already.

Quote:
Can we install and get it running on a naturally aspirated car before we turbo to eliminate another troubleshooting variable?
I do not see why not. It will act as if it is not there. It has a MAP sensor that activates it upon hitting Boost. This make sense if you were wiring it in. If it is a PNP version, it would not be necessary to install it ahead of time.

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Do we need to add a Cam Angle Sensor or does it work with stock timing? How does it pull timing?
You do not need to add any sensor. It has an internal MAP sensor. I am pretty sure that I know how the timing is adjusted, But I want to be sure before I tell you. I will double check and post it.

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Is there anything else fuel/electrical/electronics-wise that I will need to purchase to run the Zoom 3?
You can program it with any computer - PC or laptop. Other than that, there is nothing else needed. It comes with the cable already.

Quote:
Because 305cc Toyota Supra injectors are readily available for around $40-$50 for the set and 270cc MSM injectors are less available and much more expensive, will you be testing the unit with the 305's? I have been told that the Zoom 3 is rated for 270's max. What actually limits it to the 270's?
We can test it, we just have not done it yet. I do not have a set of those injectors. So if someone would allow us to borrow a set, I would be happy to test them as an option.

The limiting factor is amount of fuel that gets added. So basically with a larger injector, you will be adding less fuel. If you get to the point where you are not adding any fuel and it is too rich, you've just used an injector that is too big.

Quote:
Is a detailed installation guide done for the first time installer?

Thanks,

John
There is not one yet, however it will be done by the time the units are shipping. The main things to explain is the ECU pin out (if you are wiring it in), and how to adjust it. It is really simple and easy to use software.
You're Welcome,
Stephanie
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Old 08-06-2008, 10:07 PM   #3
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It's going to be really fun when this is released and people start exploring the limits. If it lengthens the injector pulsewidth like most other piggybacks in this category, then the limiting factor to injector size will be the ability of the stock ECU to idle them. Then it will be the %age limit of pulse width lengthening... I'm thinking around 100% pulse width increase is the norm here. Even at stock fuel pressure, I think you're gonna have a lot more fuel than you've got timing for.

I've seen several Voodoo users say "FM said they'd never tried larger than stock injectors and don't recommend them". I can't see any reason for that other than they don't want people running larger injectors and turning up the boost without the ability to retard timing... and I don't blame them. That could run into a lot of "Voodoo blew up my motor".

On 1.6cars, most people can acceptably idle up to 330's by tweaking slightly the idle-fuel mixture screw and adjusting the spring on the AFM. I'm not sure about the 1.8 MAF's, but they're usually a little better about compensating for things like that in Open Loop.

I'm thinking 330'[email protected] on a GT2560 w/2.5"+ exhaust, and the ability to retard timing... damn if 250whp isn't out of the question. Of course the avearge guy looking at the Zoom3 probably won't have aspirations that lofty... but at least one of them will. I can't WAIT!
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Old 08-07-2008, 09:38 AM   #4
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I was kind of thinking the same thing about the idle. I figured the Supra 305's will handle any amount of boost I will want, they are cheap and should idle OK. That said, from emails and on the BEGI site, Stephanie's car is running 8 psi on a GT2860, #3 IC and 3" exhaust for 210whp on stock injectors.
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Old 08-07-2008, 10:17 AM   #5
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This thing sounds like the best low-boost solution for NBs I have heared of yet.
Price is reasonable too.
Stein, can't wait for you to get one, I am curious how easy the tuning will be for tech-challanged guys like me...keep us posted.
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Old 08-07-2008, 03:17 PM   #6
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On 1.6cars, most people can acceptably idle up to 330's by tweaking slightly the idle-fuel mixture screw and adjusting the spring on the AFM. I'm not sure about the 1.8 MAF's, but they're usually a little better about compensating for things like that in Open Loop.

I'm thinking 330'[email protected] on a GT2560 w/2.5"+ exhaust, and the ability to retard timing... damn if 250whp isn't out of the question. Of course the avearge guy looking at the Zoom3 probably won't have aspirations that lofty... but at least one of them will. I can't WAIT!
The 1.8L can compensate, to a point, for the injectors. My car ran the MSM injectors just fine, however idle was really rich. As was regular cruising around, so it made for horrible gas mileage.

I have no doubt the Zoom3 could support 220 whp, depending on injectors and hardware. 250 may be stretching it though.
Stephanie
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Old 08-07-2008, 03:46 PM   #7
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Stein, can't wait for you to get one, I am curious how easy the tuning will be for tech-challanged guys like me...keep us posted.
I'm on it as soon as they are released. I'm hoping/thinking tuning won't be too bad. Still going to put in a wideband even though it won't communicate. Can at least use the guage for street tuning.

I'm going to stick with the stock injectors. I can't run pig rich and lose gas milage because I highway drive the car about 4K a month. Plus, if Stephanie can boost 8psi on stock injectors, that's good enough for my goals.
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Old 02-13-2009, 11:12 AM   #8
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So did anyone ever try running the 305cc injectors to see how the Zoom 3 would handle it.
MSM injectors are 270cc, what size are the 99-00 stock injectors again, was it 240cc?

Will the Zoom 3 unit retard timing if it senses knock, and if so by how much. I live in Phoenix and knock control is a BIG issue for me running no IC yet.
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Old 02-13-2009, 11:15 AM   #9
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Nobody knows because they still haven't released the Zoom3. I ended up going with an Adaptronic. Installing it now.
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Old 02-13-2009, 11:34 AM   #10
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Nobody knows because they still haven't released the Zoom3. I ended up going with an Adaptronic. Installing it now.
Wow thats surprising? Most of the posts made it seem like it was coming out 6 months ago?

I myself was looking at the powercard Pro and Timing card but it won't adjust timing if it senses knock and thats a MAJOR drawback for me.

Eventually I will go MS when I get the new motor, but for now I'm porting my M45 and throwing a 62.5 pulley on it while being rebuilt and I wanted to tune propelrly for AFR and timing (with a maybe a slightly larger cc injector for safety like MSM units) to maximize my power I currently have, but I haven't put the FMIC in yet and I'm worried about engine knock in Phoenix summer heat and I wanted a setup that would be able to adjust the fuel but also keep a close watchful eye on that timing issue for me, kind of like the J&S but with fuel control as well, and for a reasonable price?

Any advice?
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Old 02-13-2009, 11:43 AM   #11
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Don't waste your money porting a m45. OMG. Do you have another thread about this? You've got your priorities all backwards. If you want a better setup quit dumping money in your old ****. Seeing how many steps you can take to get where you want to be will maximize the amount of time and money you waste. Nothing more.

Sell SC ****, get a turbo
Get a MS
Go fast.
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Old 02-13-2009, 12:01 PM   #12
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Don't waste your money porting a m45. OMG. Do you have another thread about this? You've got your priorities all backwards. If you want a better setup quit dumping money in your old ****. Seeing how many steps you can take to get where you want to be will maximize the amount of time and money you waste. Nothing more.

Sell SC ****, get a turbo
Get a MS
Go fast.
Port blower 450 dollars, do your advice about 7 grand. I already have a fast car in the works 383 T90 single turbo Vette that has been estimated to put down 1400-1450HP on racegas when done that is costing me well ove 30 grand for the drivetrain alone(12 grand in motor parts alone so far). So my priorities for your ideas are last on the burner. As I only have just so much money to spead around......now if I could just win a few hundred million in the lottery....

The miata is my daily driver and when I build a new motor I will go MP62 or Begi stage 5. Till then I will have fun and maximize what I have. And enjoy top down driving in AZ. Since my bearings are shot in the blower it needs to be rebuilt anyway(62k on the blower) so it's being ported for free at the high speed lab as a thank you for me having them rebuild it, I should see about 8 pounds of boost now instead of 4.5, not bad for under 500 bucks. Because of that and the pulley swap I will see more power and the old powercard I have is practically worthless now as it runs SUPER rich and constantly fouls O2 sensors(5 so far) and Cats(on my 3rd one now) because of it so I'm looking for something in the 500-700 dollar range to replace it and adjust for what I have now and maybe rid myself of some of the annoying driving and mechanical side effects from an old, outdated POS fuel control setup.

No offense but I'm an ASE certified factory trained BMW tech that has been building cars for over 22 years now(but I broke my back in 3 places 30 months ago so I can't work in the field anymore, but I'm also an engineer so i went back to that now). I'm well aware of what is possible for Miata's and what my final goal is, but thats not what I'm look for info wise right now. I'm simply looking for something a little better than what I have currently that won't cost a lot, add some ponies and solve some quirky driveability issues I'm currently haveing with the old powerCard and it will add to the resale value when I do eventually sell my motor, blower and ECU controls as a whole package when I finally do step up to my complete motor/MS2/Blower or turbo setup when the Vette is done.

BTW sorry if I sound defensive, it's a horrible day at work and it's been a bad week pretty much all the way around and I don't mean to take it out on you if thats how it came across.

Last edited by stubbs; 02-13-2009 at 12:15 PM.
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Old 02-13-2009, 01:00 PM   #13
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Wow thats surprising? Most of the posts made it seem like it was coming out 6 months ago?

That's what we thought, too. I couldn't afford to wait any longer.
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Old 02-13-2009, 01:08 PM   #14
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That's what we thought, too. I couldn't afford to wait any longer.
You couldn't afford to wait any longer? So it's not going to be released then?
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Old 02-13-2009, 02:53 PM   #15
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You couldn't afford to wait any longer? So it's not going to be released then?
I suppose it will be eventually. I meant that I personally couldn't afford to wait any longer. Turbo project was done and the car was sitting here without any ECU, so I went another direction.
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Old 02-13-2009, 03:12 PM   #16
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Port blower 450 dollars, do your advice about 7 grand.
Bell S = $1,799
DIY Intercooler = ~$200
Parallel MS2 = ~$500
RX7 injectors = ~$125
LC-1 = $199

Sale of MP45 system = ~$1,000

1,799 + 200 + 500 + 125 + 199 = 2,823.

2,823 = 1,000 = 1,823

$1,823 $7,000

Not sucking = priceless.

There are some things in life money can't buy. For everything else, there's boost.
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Old 02-13-2009, 03:35 PM   #17
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Bell S = $1,799
DIY Intercooler = ~$200
Parallel MS2 = ~$500
RX7 injectors = ~$125
LC-1 = $199

Sale of MP45 system = ~$1,000

1,799 + 200 + 500 + 125 + 199 = 2,823.

2,823 = 1,000 = 1,823

$1,823 $7,000

Not sucking = priceless.

There are some things in life money can't buy. For everything else, there's boost.
You're also leaving out about 3 grand worth of labor LOL. I can't do the work myself anymore, I broke my back.

Plus in truth, I'm happy enough with what I have right now that if I have a little more power, maybe another 20-25HP it will be enough to hold me over for me to wait and see what happens in the next 18 months.........see my best friend and I own a house together. Money is tight for him right now but getting better. If money gets good enough he wants me to design a single turbo setup for his 2006 GTO based on an LSX block and forged rotating assembly and a D&D prepped T56.....which means within 18 months I might just have a spare 400HP LS2 motor and a T56 trans both with like 30k on them sitting in my garage.......see where I'm going here? I'd rather spend 500 bucks and be content with my fuel and timing issues for now with what I have before I truly go nuts and spend thousands of dollars that may turn out to be money down the toilet in the not to distant future.
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