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Old 12-21-2009, 02:34 AM   #1
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Default COP system customer service thread

Hello customers,

Updates about the COP systems will be given here. You are also more then welcome to voice your concerns about the product and delivery times here.

Best,
Travis
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Old 12-22-2009, 07:39 PM   #2
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So Travis,what is the latest?
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Old 12-23-2009, 11:41 PM   #3
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I am posting in this thread on the advice of one of the moderators.

Long story, so everyone please be patient as I explain the details.

I was extremely excited about B.E.'s COPS kit, so I put my name on the list. Travis told me about the backlog, so I thanked him for that, and he refunded my money. I figured I'd wait until the product was ready and then re-order it. A short time later I changed my mind, and immediately re-ordered it -- I figured it's best to get on the waiting list now, and that sending money would help guarantee my spot, and it also would help me avoid spending the money elsewhere.

A few weeks went by, and as you all know, Travis posted MANY reasons for the delays in shipping the COPS.

Finally I got my COPS one day. They were dead-on-arrival. There was ZERO spark.

I called Travis and he said this surprised him because he tested the unit on an NA before sending it to me. I asked if they'd ever been tested on an NB. Apparently the answer is "no". I offered to send them back. Instead, Travis said to keep them, and that he'd send a replacement control box. I said okay.

He then sent me a whole new kit instead of just the control box. He told me to try the new control box and the new harness too, with the first set of coils. I did that, and my mechanic tried also, but only coils 1&4 sparked -- nothing from 2&3.

By the way, when I say "my mechanic," I don't mean just any neighborhood gearhead. I'm referring to Seth Goodwin at Dealer Alternative. Anyone who's been around Miatas for a few years knows that D.A. is the original Flyin' Miata shop, here in NJ, before they moved west. Seth is the ASE Master Mechanic there and more of a veteran than just about anyone else at Miata turbo kits and such. So there is no question here that the installation attempt was done correctly. Seth also commented on the poor construction of the COPS, and even went the extra mile to try to fix that, but it still didn't work. Also he installed the kit AFTER fixing my car's other issues, so it's not as if something else caused the COPS not to work -- this was a B.E. problem, not a my-car problem.

So, I again informed Travis of the problem. At this point I told him that I can no longer be any sort of testbed, that I sincerely feel bad for his situation, I even more sincerely rooted for him because I wanted the COPS, but that my bottom line now is a simple refund. I told him I'll send both units back immediately via UPS, and I expect a refund, and we'll forget about the whole ugly issue.

Travis wrote back to me and said he can't do that because he doesn't have the money. He gave more excuses about why that's the case, but I don't see any reason to list them here.

I replied to him that since it's the holidays and stuff, I will give him an extra week to come up with my refund, and that while I feel bad for the guy, his excuses aren't my problem. Bottom line is he represented himself as a legitimate business, he accepted my order, but the product didn't work despite his two attempts. I am entitled to a refund.

Since he basically said "no" I raised the issue that I just might have him deal with my attorney instead of me.

He replied:

"Here is the real deal. I told you I don't have the money to repay it right now and I'm working on a loan to pay it back. I put you ahead of 14 other customers because of your griping"

Those other customers aren't my problem.

"You can sue me for the 439 dollars if you want now, and I'll let it go to court and you'll pay thousands in lawyer fees, wait for it to come up on the federal dockett and I'll represent myself where it won't cost me a dime. At the end of the lawsuit I'll pay the 439 dollars in 6 months instead of around January 15th when I expect to be able to get the money."

That's the first time he mentioned any kind of timeframe for paying me.

"While I understand your position I want to also outline how many emails I sent you stating the product was not ready ... You persisted and bought the product anyways."

What!? By accepting customer's money and delivering the product, it's supposed to be ready. Is it Travis' m.o. that he'll send products which he knowingly believes are not "ready" just to shut up a paying customer? In reality, the very act of shipping the product means that he thinks it is ready.

"I recommend products to you that I don't sell to fix your ignition problem, and you still denied those offers"

True, he gave me some car advice. So? That is unrelated to the fact that HIS product didn't work -- and I don't mean "it didn't work to fix my car," ... I mean it LITERALLY did not work.

you may huff and puff, but you understand the customer contract very clearly.

Yes, I do! I don't think Travis does. There was never any "contract", verbal or written or otherwise, that in exchange for my money he'd send me non-working products. Why would he think I want that? He did tell me there would be some delay, which in fact there was, and then he finally sent the product. That means the delay was over, or should have been. Yeesh.

The only "contract" is what he offers at http://www.boundaryengineering.com/cops.php in exchange for my $439.10 + shipping.

But, since I'm such a nice guy and it's the holidays and all, I decided to make him a new deal: I'd be willing to accept my refund in equal credit for other parts that he sells.

He hasn't yet responded to that offer which I made via PM here. I'm leery of the offer myself because I don't have much faith that his company will be around much longer to honor it.

Anyway, that's all the details of my experience with his "customer service".

Last edited by evank; 12-24-2009 at 12:11 AM.
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Old 12-24-2009, 12:33 AM   #4
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OK before this gets out of hand, this thread is for customers to post their concerns and questions and for Travis to respond accordingly.

DO NOT fill it full of peanut gallery bullshit. I've deleted the off topic stuff.
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Old 12-24-2009, 01:38 AM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by evank View Post
I am posting in this thread on the advice of one of the moderators.

Long story, so everyone please be patient as I explain the details.

I was extremely excited about B.E.'s COPS kit, so I put my name on the list. Travis told me about the backlog, so I thanked him for that, and he refunded my money. I figured I'd wait until the product was ready and then re-order it. A short time later I changed my mind, and immediately re-ordered it -- I figured it's best to get on the waiting list now, and that sending money would help guarantee my spot, and it also would help me avoid spending the money elsewhere.

A few weeks went by, and as you all know, Travis posted MANY reasons for the delays in shipping the COPS.

Finally I got my COPS one day. They were dead-on-arrival. There was ZERO spark.

I called Travis and he said this surprised him because he tested the unit on an NA before sending it to me. I asked if they'd ever been tested on an NB. Apparently the answer is "no". I offered to send them back. Instead, Travis said to keep them, and that he'd send a replacement control box. I said okay.

He then sent me a whole new kit instead of just the control box. He told me to try the new control box and the new harness too, with the first set of coils. I did that, and my mechanic tried also, but only coils 1&4 sparked -- nothing from 2&3.

By the way, when I say "my mechanic," I don't mean just any neighborhood gearhead. I'm referring to Seth Goodwin at Dealer Alternative. Anyone who's been around Miatas for a few years knows that D.A. is the original Flyin' Miata shop, here in NJ, before they moved west. Seth is the ASE Master Mechanic there and more of a veteran than just about anyone else at Miata turbo kits and such. So there is no question here that the installation attempt was done correctly. Seth also commented on the poor construction of the COPS, and even went the extra mile to try to fix that, but it still didn't work. Also he installed the kit AFTER fixing my car's other issues, so it's not as if something else caused the COPS not to work -- this was a B.E. problem, not a my-car problem.

So, I again informed Travis of the problem. At this point I told him that I can no longer be any sort of testbed, that I sincerely feel bad for his situation, I even more sincerely rooted for him because I wanted the COPS, but that my bottom line now is a simple refund. I told him I'll send both units back immediately via UPS, and I expect a refund, and we'll forget about the whole ugly issue.

Travis wrote back to me and said he can't do that because he doesn't have the money. He gave more excuses about why that's the case, but I don't see any reason to list them here.

I replied to him that since it's the holidays and stuff, I will give him an extra week to come up with my refund, and that while I feel bad for the guy, his excuses aren't my problem. Bottom line is he represented himself as a legitimate business, he accepted my order, but the product didn't work despite his two attempts. I am entitled to a refund.

Since he basically said "no" I raised the issue that I just might have him deal with my attorney instead of me.

He replied:

"Here is the real deal. I told you I don't have the money to repay it right now and I'm working on a loan to pay it back. I put you ahead of 14 other customers because of your griping"

Those other customers aren't my problem.

"You can sue me for the 439 dollars if you want now, and I'll let it go to court and you'll pay thousands in lawyer fees, wait for it to come up on the federal dockett and I'll represent myself where it won't cost me a dime. At the end of the lawsuit I'll pay the 439 dollars in 6 months instead of around January 15th when I expect to be able to get the money."

That's the first time he mentioned any kind of timeframe for paying me.

"While I understand your position I want to also outline how many emails I sent you stating the product was not ready ... You persisted and bought the product anyways."

What!? By accepting customer's money and delivering the product, it's supposed to be ready. Is it Travis' m.o. that he'll send products which he knowingly believes are not "ready" just to shut up a paying customer? In reality, the very act of shipping the product means that he thinks it is ready.

"I recommend products to you that I don't sell to fix your ignition problem, and you still denied those offers"

True, he gave me some car advice. So? That is unrelated to the fact that HIS product didn't work -- and I don't mean "it didn't work to fix my car," ... I mean it LITERALLY did not work.

you may huff and puff, but you understand the customer contract very clearly.

Yes, I do! I don't think Travis does. There was never any "contract", verbal or written or otherwise, that in exchange for my money he'd send me non-working products. Why would he think I want that? He did tell me there would be some delay, which in fact there was, and then he finally sent the product. That means the delay was over, or should have been. Yeesh.

The only "contract" is what he offers at Boundary Engineering in exchange for my $439.10 + shipping.

But, since I'm such a nice guy and it's the holidays and all, I decided to make him a new deal: I'd be willing to accept my refund in equal credit for other parts that he sells.

He hasn't yet responded to that offer which I made via PM here. I'm leery of the offer myself because I don't have much faith that his company will be around much longer to honor it.

Anyway, that's all the details of my experience with his "customer service".


Look Evan here is the deal.

You've cussed me out 2 times now on the phone(that was after you waited about 2 weeks), you've threatened lawsuit several times. You've been bossy, rude, and incosiderate.


I don't know how I could have been more clear to not buy this kit. I've told you atleast 2 times via email they wern't ready. I told you verbally on the phone they wern't ready. I don't know how to tell you any other way they wern't ready.

I told you not to buy my kit. I told you to buy the NGK's if you want to reduce spark blow out by generating a spark using less ionization energy created by the pointyness of the electrodes. Remember that conversation? I speant two hours on the phone with you explaining how different ignition systems that I don't sell will fix your problem so that you would not buy my kit. You bought my kit. Everyone knows that I've had ridiculous issues with this kit. The issues are continuing to compound.

I told everyone I will not be holding the kits over to the new year. Parts are way too sparing, so I am getting a loan to pay everyone back. I'm swallowing a huge amount of money on this deal to remove the customer from the heat, because I've bankrupted myself trying to fix the problem and its just not ready to go yet. I kept telling myself I could quick turn it and move it along, but it didn't happen. So I'm doing the best I can.

Bottom line is you have bullied the process from the very beginning. You did not heed my warnings to not buy my product. You did it anyways against my wishes knowing full well the intimate details and that others had been waiting for months, and now you act as if you were struck by a comet in surprise and awe that things turned out the way they did. What else did you expect?
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Old 12-24-2009, 01:56 AM   #6
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Originally Posted by TravisR View Post
You've cussed me out 2 times now on the phone
False. I never cursed at you.

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you've threatened lawsuit several times
False. I mentioned ONE time that I might have you talk to my lawyer.


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Originally Posted by TravisR View Post
You've been bossy, rude, and incosiderate.
False. I've been very patient and flexible considering all of your excuses.



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Originally Posted by TravisR View Post
I don't know how to tell you any other way they wern't ready.
False. But if you truly believe that, then you should not have sold them in any circumstance. Once you take money and ship the product, you are saying "they are ready now."

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Originally Posted by TravisR View Post
You bought my kit. Everyone knows that I've had ridiculous issues with this kit. The issues are continuing to compound.
That's an astounding defense: "Don't blame me. Me, my business, and my product stink."

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Originally Posted by TravisR View Post
my warnings to not buy my product. You did it anyways against my wishes
What ????? Who does business this way ????????????

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Originally Posted by TravisR View Post
knowing full well the intimate details and that others had been waiting for months, and now you act as if you were struck by a comet in surprise and awe that things turned out the way they did.
We all knew about your SUPPLY problem. I'm completely dumbfounded that you decided to ship me the product -- twice! -- yet now you're admitting that you knew all along it wouldn't work. I never "bullied" you into anything and I resent that slander. If you knew the product didn't work, or if you didn't like dealing with me, then you should have refused to send it and refunded my money at that point. I might have thought less of you as a person but at least I would have respected your business integrity. Instead, you're calling me a liar, trying to shift the blame toward me, and admitting that you knowingly took my money and delivered non-working products.

I don't need to say anything else, because you're painting yourself insanely deep into a corner.

However I will NOT back down until I get my money back, some way, somehow. You picked the wrong person to challenge.

I should also hold you responsible for the labor I had to pay my mechanic while he tried to get your product to work.
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Old 12-24-2009, 02:14 AM   #7
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Look, I don't know if you thought I was joking when I said don't buy my product, but I do tell people that if its not ready. The funny part is that you knew the product had problems because I had already refunded your money once, because I told you they wern't ready yet. THEN YOU BOUGHT THEM A SECOND TIME. Let me clarify this. YOU BOUGHT THEM AGAIN AFTER I REFUNDED YOU TELLING YOU THEY WERE NOT READY. AFTER WE HAD A PHONE CONVERSATION ABOUT HOW THEY WERE NOT READY.

I'm not sure whats going on with the system. Right now, I believe the polyester resin is absorbing moisture and becoming conductive because they run before I pot them as I hardwire them into my car. Probably one of those lessons I haven't stumbled upon yet in electronics design. The design isn't importantant at this point. When they are ready they will be distributed, they aren't ready. They work fine on my car on the adaptronic. They work fine on other cars with the Adaptronic. They work fine sometimes on stock systems evidently. I dunno. I feel bad about it though and thats why I'm taking out a loan to get everyone their money back. I don't want anyone to have a system that works part time.

At any rate don't tell me you didn't understand. You understood exactly, so your intention was to buy the product, irritate the crap out of me until you got the head of the line and get your product. So you can not back down all you want, but here is the chronological time line of this transaction.

I told you not to buy the product. I suggested other products. I spent my time telling you what other products besides "stuff I sell" will help. I told you not to buy my products (thus the conversation that last for hours about the NGK plugs otherwise I wouldn't have even brought them up if I were trying to trick you.) Then you offhand bought the product. I gave your money back to you and told you they were not ready. Then you bought it a second time after I told you they wern't ready. Then surprise they wern't ready. Thats when you called me up and starting cussing about it being late, and how my customer service is complete crap. All that good stuff. I have email records, paypal records, and verbal conversation stating this is the actual time line and the events that occured.

I mean... I don't know what else to say here Evan. Its clear to me that you were aware there was substantial risk in buying this product. Then when things went really sour you're just going to have to wait about 20 more days to get your money back while I round things together.
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Old 12-24-2009, 02:22 AM   #8
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you knew the product had problems because I had already refunded your money once, because I told you they wern't ready yet.
False. You told me the parts weren't in stock yet. You didn't mean "not ready" as in "they don't work."

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Originally Posted by TravisR View Post
When they are ready they will be distributed, they aren't ready.
Then you shouldn't have distributed them. Plain and simple.

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Originally Posted by TravisR View Post
the conversation that last for hours
Hours? False. I remember one conversation that might have last more than 60 minutes, but if it did, that's because we were B.S.-ing about all things Miata.

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you called me up and starting cussing
Still false no matter how many times you say it. I never cursed at you.

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Its clear to me that you were aware there was substantial risk in buying this product.
False. I was aware there could be a substantial DELAY in your ability to acquire the inventory. I certainly would never have paid you, nor accepted the parts, if there was any doubt that your design actually works. (At the same time, and still today, your web site falsely advertises the product and accepts orders.)

Quote:
Originally Posted by TravisR View Post
your just going to have to wait about 20 more days to get your money back while I round things together.
Fine. You didn't say anything about Jan. 15 when we traded PMs earlier today. Then, once I went public with all this, suddenly you offered a specific timeframe. Works for me. I expect to get a check from you on the 15th or some reasonable time thereafter for the mail to be delivered.
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Old 12-24-2009, 03:08 AM   #9
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Quote:
I don't know what else to say here Evan. Its clear to me that you were aware there was substantial wait in buying this product
Fixed. There was a WAIT not a RISK!
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Old 12-24-2009, 03:26 AM   #10
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I haven't accepted an order on this product in forever. Everyone I get I return the money for unless I have a solid conversation with the customer about expectation just like I did you. Regardless of whether its up there I still have the final say of who I sell to. It isn't like you buy it and its a binding contract. Its like you buy it, and then I have the right to deny sale and return the money just like any other businessmen does in the world.

You can say my statements are false or misleading, or whatever. You can say I ran and begged for forgiveness after you went public, but thats not right either. I follow through on my business dealings because I'm upfront about them and I take responsibility for my sales. That is the date I've had written for the past week regardless of the outcome of your coil pack.

I'm not scamming anyone here Evan. You won't find another person in the Miata community that sells custom parts for less money. The oil pump gears, the oil pump assemblies, the frame rails, and everything that is retailed on my website is at the lowest price that is allowed by the manufacturer including the adaptronic. If I went any lower I'd be in breach of contract, and even then I'm inching on it because I offer shipping inclued at minimum advertised price.

Regardless of what you think I have hundreds of satisfied customers. I treat every customer with respect and ship them their product as quickly as possible. This is the one bad product I have, and I regret ever getting involved with it. It sounded like a good idea with a good designer to take care of it. When the design turned bad my customers and I were already so deep it was hard to get out. End of story.
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Old 12-24-2009, 11:54 AM   #11
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Travis, I have been watching the COP GB thread since the beginning. It was clearly obvious that all Evan wanted was a set of working cops, that he paid for. I couldn't believe how patient these guys were being waiting for what 6 months now with no product. I absolutely understand Evan's frustration at this point, he paid for a product and was well aware of an incredibly long wait time and an equally long list of delays. He did not receive a working product, and as far as I know his car works otherwise.

Might I suggest in the future you hesitate to start a group buy or pre-order list until you have an engineered, tested, working solution before offering it to the public. Don't forget the issues people were having with the adaptronic harnesses...they were not PNP when you shipped the first few. Granted you handled it well, but it's also not fair to your customers & the mt.net community.
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Old 12-24-2009, 12:47 PM   #12
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Travis, I have been watching the COP GB thread since the beginning. It was clearly obvious that all Evan wanted was a set of working cops, that he paid for. I couldn't believe how patient these guys were being waiting for what 6 months now with no product. I absolutely understand Evan's frustration at this point, he paid for a product and was well aware of an incredibly long wait time and an equally long list of delays. He did not receive a working product, and as far as I know his car works otherwise.

Might I suggest in the future you hesitate to start a group buy or pre-order list until you have an engineered, tested, working solution before offering it to the public. Don't forget the issues people were having with the adaptronic harnesses...they were not PNP when you shipped the first few. Granted you handled it well, but it's also not fair to your customers & the mt.net community.
Braineack,

This is surely my lesson that I've learned. Its my first business, so I'm still learning the ropes. I made a terrible, terrible, business decision with the COP units. Someone could probably write a book about how wrong that business decision was.

I'm not sure what you're refering to with the Adaptronic harnesses though. They were never changed, and have always been plug and play without any issues.

Best,
Travis
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Old 12-24-2009, 12:53 PM   #13
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I remember cjernigan and neo both having small issues that were fixed without issues.
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Old 12-26-2009, 05:21 PM   #14
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so, after 12 replies:
- the cops are shipped
- the cops aren't shipped
- the cops work
- the cops don't work
- we get refund, no cops
- we get no refund, no cops

i only read reproaches, no infoīs:
Quote:
Updates about the COP systems will be given here. You are also more then welcome to voice your concerns about the product and delivery times here.

Last edited by ViRuS2k; 01-05-2010 at 04:22 PM.
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Old 01-04-2010, 01:42 PM   #15
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So what's the story on these COP kits?
I still see them on the site but are they or are they not available for purchase?
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Old 01-04-2010, 01:54 PM   #16
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New Year, no COPīs :(
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Old 01-04-2010, 08:23 PM   #17
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So here is the new part in the flesh, this one is actually spooky fish's. Sorry I haven't been around, the holidays really axed my time. I didn't realize I had as many family obligations as I did until I entered into the Holiday time warp.

The new harness is more durable and DEFINITELY more flexible then the last one. This harness removes the connector at the box allowing me to continue production without the extra parts. It also removes about 24 failure points, increases conductivity, and allows me to use the original COP system tie down to the valve cover using a carbon or aluminum plate. The more things I redesign with this system the better it continues to get.

The plan is to get everything ready by the 15th, and if its not ready to just send checks. I'm still working on the loan to get the money back. As it stands at this point each COP system costs me about 600 dollars to complete with materials, and so forth. So a lot of things need to change with the system so that its cheaper for me to make before it can become a sale item once more.

Best,
Travis
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Old 01-04-2010, 08:46 PM   #18
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That's a nice looking product Travis. I really dig the housing.
I have 2 suggestions for you though, and they're related.
>offer the unit w/o any circuitry for dwell reduction. Face it; everyone who "needs" this product for the most part is running some sort of standalone with the ability to set dwell on a 2d or even 3d map.
>offer a jumper system so that the folks with standalones can run easily run sequential instead of wasted spark
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Old 01-04-2010, 09:07 PM   #19
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Why are the length's to each connector the same? Wouldn't you want it scaling from 1 to 4 so that you dont have extra wiring?
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Old 01-04-2010, 09:20 PM   #20
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I inquired about the cop system and Travis was very direct about them not being available. I see that he has had issues with him so i do appreciate the honesty not selling me the product. I have done prior business with him and had no problems with transactions or his service. I still would be interested in his cop system if he does get it in working order from prior experiences with Travis.
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