[NC] 7.5lbs per HP build thread / xpost from M.Net
 

Good evening fellow boost heads,

I have a few posts over in the Prefabbed Turbo subforum in Fab9's Turbo NC Kit thread, but overall I'm still lame-o n00b status. I've previously owned a mildly modified 2004 Titanium MSM and loved it and then sold it like a moron.

Did research, discovered that NC Mk2's come from the factory with forged internals and can reasonably deal with ~300wtq without (forcefully?) opening the block. I'm now in Fab9's NC kit pre-production group and will be targeting a power level where 4th gear scrabbles for traction :dealwithit: (naively assuming >= ~350WHP on a dynojet; something over 1bar of boost at the manifold.)

I'm approaching this methodically, we're applying boost only after getting the rest of the car pinned down nicely. I've already started a build thread over on Miata.net (yeah, yeah) and will be cross-posting the useful details into THIS thread also.

Stay tuned for the copy pasta tonight and then subsequent updates as the build progresses.

Copy of "first post" over on Miata.net build thread...
Most of the "super cars" start somewhere in the area where each horsepower sent to the tarmac has about 7.5lbs to pull along. They also start with a whole lot of money :) Since my wife will have none of that while we have kids in the single-digits age, guess I'll go with a modified Miata instead :)

A 330whp-ish build should be readily attained with a reasonable parts list. But first, the donor: I found this 2009 Touring with suspension package at Lou Fusz Nissan in St. Louis MO. Worked out a good price via phone and internet conversation, took the MegaBus and an Uber to get there from Memphis, and drove it off the lot with 11,240 miles on it for $14k.

https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1445293583
https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1445293583
https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1445293583
https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1445293583
https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1445293583
https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1445293583
(Odometer shown after I drove it home, and to work once or twice.)

Car will go together in four phases, and is paced mostly by the income I assign to it (currently ~$1k/mo for parts, with a rather large bump in October from bonus):

Phase 1: Underpinnings
Flyin' Miata Stage 2 suspension for the NC, includes springs, sways and sway bushings. I already have this kit in my garage waiting.
Camber adjustment bolts. On order, haven't arrived yet.
ILM 5-piece Brace Kit. To be ordered mid-August.

Phase 2: Traction and related
FM LBBK, "standard size", black calipers, slotted (not drilled) front rotors. To be ordered mid-September
Enkei PF01 17x8 +50 in matte black. To be ordered in October
Tires of undecided brand and type, 235/40R17. To be ordered in October
Fender roll as needed, also in October.

Pause: New kid due November 23rd.
A boy this time. Sweet :)
Love my kids and all, but I'm done. Time for outpatient surgery, if you know what I mean. Ouch. December or January some time, most likely.
Money continues to accrue during this break...

Phase 3: Drivetrain and supplementary
Stock horsepower dyno runs. March timeframe.
Aftermarket radiator TBD. March timeframe
Oil cooler, probably from Rev9. March timeframe.
Carbon/Carbon clutch kit. April-ish.
Upgraded fuel pump. April.

Phase 4: Boost
Special Force Turbo, 1 bar boost, with 1000cc injectors and tuning license. May.
Tuning until it works right. May also.
New horsepower dyno runs. Whenever the tuning is done.

Completion: Drive like a hooligan.
Actually I don't intend to drive like an utter moron, but enjoyment shall commence and persist!

I'll update this thread and this post as I make my way through the build.

Condensed 2nd, 3rd and 4th posts from M.Net...
Phase 1: GWR and ILM braces are in. FM stage 2 suspension too. And I went with the Cobalt FSTB per the recommendation of the forum. Timeline of the project still good :-)

https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1445293695

A stiff Miata is a happy Miata...
https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1445293695

(not pictured: Toe braces are out of view, to the right...)

Skipped a few posts, here's the brakes.
Brakes arrived a few days ago, sorry for phone pics...

https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1445293755

https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1445293755

Not pictured is the redline RL600 fluid and stainless lines that were included. I opted for all four matched slotted rotors. The install will have to wait until I get the wheels to properly fit over them...

I've stopped here. I'm strongly considering skipping the "new" wheels and tires for the moment and moving straight to the radiator, fans + ducting, oil cooler and clutch instead. Working with Bryan@Fab9 to order all of it from him directly rather than piecemealing it out. I can get the brakes squeezed under the factory wheels with a 5mm spacer, which is what FM recommends.

The other reason I'm considering the wait for tires is it's nearly winter here; new wheels and R-compound rubber will be pointless when it's 40* outside :(

OGRacing, a member on this forum, doesn't think the FM LBBK are good brakes.

The post i read (which i tried to find and quote) didn't elaborate much, just seemed to allude to other brake kits being much better for the price.

Not sure this helps you at all, since you already have the brakes.

Sweet car, btw. Good deal!

It looks like he's absolutely not a fan of the Wilwood rotors, which this kit doesn't use. The front fits over stock (11.5") rotors, the rears upsize to a Mazda 5 11.9" blank. I also see that the DynaLights aren't his favorite either for flex reasons, this kit uses the DynoPro caliper instead.

Also, I know the NC kit is sized differently than the NA/NB that are most commonly discussed on this forum. It seems you guys have almost ZERO folks on the third gen platform.

True. There isn't much love for the NC. It isn't that it's a terrible car, it just isn't very Miata like.
I can certainly appreciate a good build though, and I don't entirely hate the way they look.
What are your plans for a rollbar?
Blackbird makes a very nice one for the NC.

Ah, ok, good for you!

Loving a properly documented and properly executed NC turbo build, thank you for posting this.

Thanks for the kind words. The brake rotors pictured are slotted versions from the Mazda 5, by the way, rather than Wilwood parts. Forgot to mention that in my prior reply.

Also, one picture that you didn't see is the side profile after the FM Stg2 suspension (Tokico HTS, their own springs, front and rear sways) went in:
https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1445308351

Alignment specs are camber at -1.5* F, -1.8*R, 5.5* caster, zero toe. The aggro rear camber is to keep the ass-end a bit more under control with all the bracing and the hard, old stock tires. I'm also using the stiffest setting on the front swaybar and the medium-stiff setting on the rear. With the factory LSD, it's now entirely predicable and can still pull a bit of power-on-oversteer without going ape-shit.

I went ahead and ordered the FM wheel spacers tonight so i can get the brakes installed. Haven't decided on which clutch + flywheel I want yet and I'm mildly considering some hood louvers to finish up the cooling.

So wait, you'll have larger rotors in the rear than in the front? Interesting.

Looking forward to seeing the build.

I don't think there's anything wrong with an LBBK if your goal is weight reduction and you don't plan to take a turbo car to the track. CSP autoxers put 1.6 brakes on NBs, for example, because they're lighter.

That said, you're building a turbo car, and if you *do* plan to take it to the track, then I'd skip the "L" part. :)

--Ian

Thanks for joining, albuquerquefx!

Yup, a bit bizarre, right?

There are a very high number of these kits on turbocharged or supercharged NC's that visit the track regularly. They're perhaps not the UBER solution, but they're entirely capable of repeatedly stopping a significant amount of inertia. It sounds like there are far better options for the NA/NB Miatas, although I can't imagine why the lighter chassis, lighter unsprung weight and lower (average) power from the 1st/2nd gens would need brakes even more capable than this.

I'm also able to freely admit I'm not a brake genius ;)

Still, trying to wrestle a 2500lb car with 350++ WHP will always be a unique challenge. I'll find my way to a track a few times in this car's life, but most days it will be used to wreak havoc on unsuspecting onramps / offramps and winding roads all over Tennessee, antagonizing ricers that seem to still exist in Memphis, and surprise an occasional "nicer" car just for a thumbs-up. :)

If I discover that they're not the right brakes, I'll swap the front end for something better.

I live in SE NM and it is nice to see someone else from NM posting in here! I really, really want to buy an 09+ PRHT and put FAB's new kit on it too. I am finding your budget to be very helpful!
Do you like the FM Stage 2 suspension? I have FM's Stage 2 on my NB and I think it oversteers waay too much.

Judging by those lush lawns and brick suburban housing, he's not really a burqueno.

But there has to be a story behind that name that we need to hear.

Good point. I read a bit closer and it appears he is in Memphis, TN.

Story time! :D

What seems like an eon ago, when I first became interested in working on cars (and eventually became adept at actually doing it) I was living in Rio Rancho, just north of Albuquerque. At the time, my car was a 1997 Hyundai Tiburon FX, which interestingly enough also included forged stock internals and could deal with quite a bit of horsepower before breaking. 350WHP before breaking rods or pistons, 450whp before breaking the diff, and about 650-750whp before breaking the output shaft.

I did a lot of learning, breaking, fixing and upgrading on a car with almost NO aftermarket, and it was an excellent learning opportunity. Built the wiring harness, installed and tuned my own Haltech E6K that I imported directly from Australia. Converted to sequential injection from batch. Built an ignition system from an RX7 toggle ignitor, stock coils and an MSD amplifier. Retrofitted the bigger, aluminum brakes from a 5-lug modern Tiburon. All kinds of crazy shit that really had no other aftermarket alternative.

Ultimately, I came to the painful conclusion that a high power front wheel drive car is horribly expensive and really isn't worth much except for import drag racing, so I parted it out + sold the rolling frame. I do miss the car, really only because of the learning opportunities it provided me.

Now you know, and knowing is half the battle :D

Well, you managed to tell a story and still not answer where you actually are. You are indeed in Memphis now?

:D Foiled again!

Memphis TN is where I live currently, yes.

Well crap! I would have gone up to ABQ just to see it.

Sorry I missed this question earlier.

Running bone stock (this car has the suspension package, which is Bilsteins and a clutched LSD) the car was prone to understeer unless you really cooked it into a corner. Unfortunately, the tires are old enough that they are kinda hard and crap now, which is likely the root cause. Getting on throttle to make the ass-end come out typically resulted in snap-oversteer once traction broke. Either you were understeering slightly or you were going ape-shit sideways at best or over-rotated at worst.

With all the braces installed, the balance immediately changed. The car almost always defaults to oversteer, but not in the psychopathic way as before. Rather, it was imminently controllable with throttle and just letting the LSD pull you back into the line.

With the FM2 suspension, the oversteer seemed a bit more pronounced to me. I played with the adjustment points on the sway bars and actually was able to dial the car into some understeer again -- which I didn't prefer. Ultimately, the car is back to roughly neutral now (IMO) but is sorely limited by the old, hard tires.

Also keep in mind that the NC doesn't ride around on the bumpstops like the NA and NB chassis seem to. Mazda gave quite a bit more room for suspension travel on the 3rd gen, so the Tokicos and springs have more room to maneuver without hitting the hard stop. I also started with the Tokico's at the adjustment point recommended by FM, but ended up going two turns softer which significantly helped with street manners.

Minor update: ordered a fat stack of parts yesterday from Fab9. Koyo radiator, Setrab oil cooler (the 25-row "big one"), Competition Clutch stage 3 (sprung segmented ceramic) and matched flywheel, along with DW340lph pump and 1000cc ID injectors.

Also ordered a new CNC-milled stainless oil filter plate to replace the stocker cast aluminum unit that is prone to crack and break at the worst times.

Pictures of the brakes, installed on thanksgiving and then properly bedded in about a week later. Contrary to some of the complaints on the NA/NB platform, the FM kit uses Wilwood Dynapro calibers instead of the dynalights that get all the complaints... https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1450719220
https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1450719220

Also for completeness sake, stock dyno numbers are in: 141hp and 128tq.

https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1450719220

And if you want to see the boring video of the second pull... ;)

This was more power than I expected, honestly. I was hoping for 135hp at best, obviously each dyno is tweaked a bit different. I have to assume this one reads just a touch high, but whatever. This is the same set of rollers I'll be using for the final numbers too, so the actually interesting part will be delta between the runs.

How does the ebrake work now? I know FM had some problems in the past with cables snapping or something.

Has your turbo kit still not shown up?

FM still warns buyers that your eBrake isn't going to be "as effective" compared to stock. They even go so far as to warn you about it slipping on mild to moderate grades... I assumed the worst!

Contrary to what they have said, I find the eBrake to be as useful as it has ever been. I haven't tried yanking it at a 40mph clip to see if I can lock the tires, but it holds just fine when parking on various grades. The total "throw" of the brake is shorter now, but when fully applied, I can't push the car by hand while on smooth, level pavement.

Nope, not yet. No dates were ever exactly communicated. Fab9's thread over on M.Net is actually getting more frequent / timely updates than here. I somewhat poked the bear in this thread to get him to post some updates :D

I'm in communication with the first 2.0L tester in Texas, it seems to be going quite well. There are some minor hiccups to be expected with the very first of any turbo kit, and Fab9 and Dynotronics are both right on top of it.

I'll be in here later to post the results of a completely stock NC with nothing but an ECU reflash. Sounds like you can get pretty close to 160whp with nothing but some computer fiddling, and I wanted to see it for myself.

The snapping cables was with the first version of it (the cables didn't actually snap, what happened was it would rip the ends off). Since then they have converted the kit to use Mazda OEM NC rear cables by using a different actuator arm on the caliper end, and those are strong enough to stand up to the job.

But yes, the parking brake is definitely not as effective as stock, because there is less leverage in the system. I can't push it on flat ground, but it won't reliably hold the car on my driveway with just the parking brake.

--Ian

It seriously can't hold your car from rolling down the driveway??

Well, obviously it depends on how steep the driveway is, but on a sufficiently steep one, yes.

This is not a stock-like parking brake. It's good enough for most things, but it's not for handbrake turns and it's not for living in San Francisco.

--Ian

It's a "be road legal" parking brake. Not a drift hand brake.

Yeah. And honestly, they DO warn you about it repeatedly. Actually, I feel that it works even better than is being alluded to here... Once or twice a week, I pull into a local coffee establishment to grab a bit of extra go-juice and their lot has a ~5% grade at the outer edge. The car sits on that grade without issue using only the parking brake, I even went so far as to see if I could further nudge it by giving it a reasonably hefty push and it didn't budge.

So, either mine is just working a tad better than the others, or it's just not as terrible as I had convinced myself it was going to be. Seriously, I assumed it was going to be the equivalent of my four year old's bicycle brake or something :D

I should probably try adjusting mine again, I think it can be better than it is right now.

It also depends somewhat on what kind of rear pads you have installed.

--Ian

Both are good points.

My brake handle is freshly adjusted; six clicks to full lock. I also went for the "standard" BP10 compound, since the supermajority of it's life is to be spent on the street rather than strip.

Looks like a great start to the build, can't wait to see it come together.

I get that, but if a brake doesn't have enough leverage to stop a 2500 lb car from rolling down a driveway, then it isn't a brake at all.

I have always left my cars in neutral and used the parking brake to keep it in place, incline or not.

Apparently, it isn't that big of a deal from the two user's experiences in here, but I would be very cautious if I had it on my own car, due to my usual parking methodology.

Yes, you'd have to change your parking methodology.

In fact, I'd really suggest you change your parking methodology regardless. Leave your vehicle in gear when parked, silly.

+1. They also make it VERY clear that the parking brake is not as strong.

There's absolutely no reason to leave the car parked in neutral unless it's idling to cool down at the track.

--Ian

My roomate didn't know that you could put a car in gear when it wasn't running. Used to always leave it in neutral. Got real pissed when I moved it and then he almost drove into the wall of the garage when he started it.

Hey guyz, is now a bad time to say how cool my turbo timer makes me look?

(I really should water cool my turbo one day)

Ecutek box showed up at my desk this morning...
https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1451323514

The atmospheric tune has begun in earnest; it's going a bit slow due to some weather challenges here in Memphis. I also have more parts to take pictures of; good lord I'm behind on taking pictures :( The AGM battery and related kit, the Innovate SCG-1 and MTX-D Oil/Pressure combo gauges, my Saleen-esque dual-gauge dash pod all hit the doorstep a day or two ago.

Also, Fab9 sent and I have paid the very last invoice for the kit; the remainder of the hard parts should arrive on my doorstep next week if all goes well. I had him coat both the charge pipes and the intercooler; the goal is to keep the car as reasonably "sleeper" as possible.

Can't wait to see your kit :likecat:

You gotta unbox and lay everything out for the money shot :drool:

Damn fine idea, I'll do exactly that.

I *did* get a picture of the new tuning tablet while loading up a new map from Joe @ DynoTronics two nights ago:
https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1455033476

Hopefully the hand gives you a sense of "scale". The Kirin cable hanging off to the right is a microUSB to dual USB "A" hub / splitter / converter thing. I've got it plugged into both the OBD2 cable and the ECUTek hardware key and just leave it beside the driver's seat. All I have to do is whip out the tablet, plug in the MicroUSB cable, and start the app from the Win10 "tablet mode" start screen.

It works flawlessly -- boots in like seven seconds, battery seems to last for between eight and ten hours of constant duty (depending on what I'm doing of course) and it's ridiculously light. It automatically on-demand tethers to my Lumia 950XL phone when I need to download a new ROM or upload a new log. Occasionally, Microsoft gets things right ;)

So what is the tablet?

How much have you spent on this turbo kit so far? If I check all the boxes on their site (battery relocation, fuel pump, and injectors) it comes to just under $6,200. I haven't seen a price on the bigger MAP sensor option yet, and you still need a clutch and tuning solution.

Tablet is a Lenovo Yoga Tablet 2 8" (Windows). <-- link to Lenovo's website

I bumped it to Windows 10 with the upgrade tool, then once the license was legit I wiped it completely and reloaded it myself from the raw OS media. Loaded one of my O365 licenses on it so it has Excel and Outlook, loaded up the ECUTek software, even loaded up Netflix because why not. The little kickstand thing isn't of much use in the car, but it's great for a table.

I'm not at liberty to discuss exact pricing of the kit itself, but I bought the slimline battery and kit (which is more expensive than the relo), the fuel pump, ID 1000cc injectors, and the 3 bar MAP. Because I'm one of the pre-prod folks, it's reasonable to state that I didn't pay the same price you see on the page. Also because I'm one of the beta testers, Bryan was very kind enough to provide some discount on any other parts I ordered in relation to the turbo setup. :)

Fab9's package tuning partner for this setup is Joe over at Dynotronics. I payed the standard, published rate for Joe's services including the purchase (not rental) of the cable and key. He's putting together a normally aspirated tune for me, with my 100% stock drivetrain, in exchange for some published dyno numbers. The cost of the additional tune was about the same as the dyno runs; it was my idea to offer :) He's been very easy to work with, and the remote tune has been REALLY simple to manage.

When the car is "complete", I figure I'll have spent about $15k in upgrades on top of the $14k purchase price. That's including all the suspension and braces, the turbo equipment and related supplementary parts (injectors, pump, radiator, oil cooler, clutch + flywheel, gauges and boost controller, etc) along with wheels (Rays TE37SL or the newer RE40's) and 200TW tires.

Hardware should be in my garage before February, which means everything short of the wheels and tires should be done before March is up.

Normally aspirated "after-tune" dyno scheduled for Wednesday, March 2nd at 8:30am CDT.

I just bought an 06 Winning Blue with a factory hard top. It has 75k miles and I plan on budgeting for a built 2.5 soon. I will lean on your experiences with this kit to see if I want to go with it!

https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1456354626

With a 2.5 build and an EFR6758, you're going to pull like a freight train :D Ask me anything you like, I'll tell you straight up.

I'm also hitting MIR this weekend to get some stock (plus ECU tune) timeslips in, so I have a more "real world" result to compare against after boost gets applied.

Looks like a nice well thought out build. Where do you dyno?

Thanks! I use Dynospeed Memphis: Home - Dynospeed Racing

They're primarily Chevy / GM build shop but there's always a few Fords rolling around in there. I'm not sure they get any real traffic from "imports", but the guys there were happy to help and seemed genuinely interested in the car and my plans for it.

There's a seriously reputable metalworking shop that I'm hoping will build my exhaust, but if not (or it's god-awful expensive) then I'll likely ask Dynospeed to do it.

Thanks! Good to know. I'm just down 55 from Mempho.

I hit up Test-n-Tune at MIR today. I'm running the stock, seven year old tires on stock pressure (35psi) which of course results in bad 60' times. This is fine to me, all I wanted to see was trap speeds which is where the power actually shows up...

https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1456628534

The times are about what I expected; kinda hoped for 14's but it became obvious I wasn't going to make it today. Do my RT's show that it's been 10 years since I did any drag racing? :D Was a great day outside though. Mid 60's, clear, low humidity, and just a small breeze to keep it cool while staging. I was the only import making runs, and was thoroughly outclassed :D

https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1456628534

Lots of cool guys (and gals) to chat with. Had a few people ask about the Miata, one particularly friendly guy in a silver C5 wanted to know when I was coming back out so he could see the turbo kit :)

It's a stock Miata making a 15 second pass, but if you want to watch it:

A 6758 on 7-8 psi will probably make 200 whp, so those times will drop soon ;)

I would hope for a lot more than that at 8 psi. My car did 230 whp at 8 psi on a GT2871R on a VVT engine. 6758 is a bigger turbo on a much better-flowing engine. I'd expect at least 250 whp at 8 psi.

Yeah, most turbocharged NC's see around 240-250 on a half bar of positive manifold pressure. I semi-reasonably expect to get to a full bar of boost when I get it all dialed in; others have been quite successful along this trek.

I have no specific interest in drag racing, however this seemed the easiest way to quantify street-usable power versus just a dynosheet number. This is also why I went to the track with a full tank of gas, didn't change tire pressure on the seven year old factory tires, and the interior was wholly unchanged from any other day of driving it (my maintenance / fuel book, the Mazda owners manual and a spare interior dome light all in the glove compartment, a spare phone charger and trombone brush in the rear cubby.)

I have no interest in trying to convince anyone here of my epic drag race skills, because I have none :)

If 8 psi gets 250 whp, then what is the argument for a 6758? A 6258 should easily put the NC drivetrain into 350+ whp range and maybe be more responsive. Is the 6758 going to be more efficient over the majority of the operating range or something?

The "production" Fab9 kits will have the option of the 6258 for exactly this reason. According to Bryan, the larger 6758 should be entirely capable of over 400WHP with enough spool for anyone's reasonable taste, the smaller 6258 good for perhaps 325whp.

The pre-prod folks all got 6758's unless specific concessions were made beforehand. My power target is more inline with the 6758 anyhow, and who knows maybe I'll bump to the 2.5L if I destroy the stock block.