1.8 EWG gt2560
 

Old setup: stock bp4w. Externally gated gt2560 at 13psi


https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.mia...cc6140e721.jpg

Current 2018 setup: Built everything block with stock pistons. Stock bpw4 head. GTX3071 @25psi, E85, Honda intake manifold. Stock drivetrain lol

2018 goal is to keep engine/drivetrain in one piece and run an 11 second quarter mile.


Attachment 218879

Check base timing and then add timing!

y

Your timing table is very conservative I think you said it is a base map, did you got it tuned?

no i didnt got it tuned. just power runs

You need to tune it and install and tune an ebc.

Since you know everything that i NEED to do why don't i just let u borrow the car for a couple years so u can make it right for me. If u could actually read youd know i cant use EBC or it will spike. Ive tried standalone ebc, mbc, and hydra ebc. The only way it wont spike is straight spring pressure

Listen love, I just tuned an NB with the same turbo and ebc, so I think I know what I'm talking about.

Do you actually asking something or just looking to fight?

If it's not creeping on spring pressure an EBC should be able to maintain the same target boost. You just need to keep working on the tune. If you for instance find where it spikes and bleed it off early enough you should prevent the spike. There is no reason that an EBC would cause a spike over just the spring rate other than it not being tuned correctly.

I have an aem tru boost. I can set at which pressure the solenoid stops sending pressure to the top of the diaphragm(holding it closed)
If i set that number near or above the spring pressure, it will spike when i shift at high rpms

OP stop acting like a ----.

The spool is dookie. I make 6 psi at like 2500. What's wrong with it?

Also..it spools ALOT better on the actual road

Can u read? It spools worse on the dyno and the wg cracks open at 7 psi and climbs up to its spring pressure

Sorry, I would have a bad attitude if I had a dry dick too.

You said it cracks at 7, so why does it spool like shit to 6?

this is from the previous run. it spools fine. like i said, the wg just opens way earlier than target psi. and if i use ebc to hold it closed longer, it spikes on up shifts.
https://cimg5.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.mia...806bb7263.jpeg


im happy rn. i made good power to beat mustangs at the strip and not crazy torque to blow the stock engine. im happy asf for 261 whp on a conservative timing map that will never knock

That's good hp on a stock block.

Thx

Good power as expected (for that much timing/boost). What really surprises me about the torque is how flat it is and how flat it stays all the way up, but then it looks like you're dropping timing from 19 to 16 if it goes to 14 like you say.

I'd congratulate you on really clever tuning (this is about the least abusive way to make 250 and try to keep the rods intact) but it looks like you got that result on accident lol

Congrats anyway :)

Yeah I knew I was going to get flamed for the lack of torque but im actually happy about it for the stock rods. Its just preparing me for the feeling of a big turbo car when i go gt2871 in the future.
Next is 1320 trap speed;)

ALSO---- thank u for telling me to get a baseline number. I could've started turning things up on the street and popped the engine. I didnt think i was anywhere near the "limit"

You need to set the spring pressure, in the AEM Tru-Boost, lower than wastegate spring pressure. Otherwise the wastegate will be stuck all the way closed until 13PSI(or whatever your wastegate spring is at) creating fastest spool, but will spike at high RPM. You can even start at 3PSI and adjust gain and other functions to gain extra spool without inducing spiking. Adjust the spring pressure up until you start seeing a spike, then reduce.

Here's a link to the manual below.

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=2&cad=rja&u act=8&ved=0ahUKEwiGpLfvrfbOAhWB6iYKHbj8CF4QFghPMAE &url=http%3A%2F%2Faemelectronics.com%2Ffiles%2Fins tructions%2F30-4350%2520Tru-Boost%2520Controller%2520Gauge.pdf&usg=AFQjCNHGQKM t7LUyiEpVz2vboo_F1Bqx_Q&sig2=OSFQfUmZM-8wEIGNZtF3oA

I bought the tru boost for this setting alone. But if i set the "SPR" setting anywhere near the actual spring rate, it spikes.

Its not as bad as it seems. I get 9-10 psi around 3000 on the street and full boost around 4000. It still goes pretty good

10 psi at 3000 rpm sounds about normal for a 2560.
Your numbers are pretty good for a base timing map and actually seems aligned with the 2560 car Elior is talking about (I know the car as well). I bet that if you play with the timing you can extract a lot more.

I tune them exactly like this on purpose.

Id say add timing and some boost and move it to 280 odd.

Dann

Ive been busy moving out of mommy and daddy's house.. But now that driving season is over here in MI and I finished my garage, out the engine comes and time to make some more power. The plan is to run 11s on stock pistons, pdextra style. I will try to update once in awhile for maximum negcats :hatecat: Here is a condensed list of things I will be adding/upgrading over the winter
ID1000s
FM fuel rail
fuelab fpr
dw300
(e85)
manley rods
aftermarket rings + flex-hone
arp head studs
arp main studs
BE oil pump
Supermiata harmonic balancer
gtx2867 w tial .86 housing
Coolant reroute
https://cimg4.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.mia...8c00bb5733.jpg
https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.mia...79f6951473.jpg
https://cimg4.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.mia...2a12e5470e.jpg

Did you figure out the issue with boost creep on the ewg?

Side note: how'd you keep the torque low like that? Most of the gt2560s I've seen make a bit more torque. Original tune looked pretty good for a stock engine!

EWG wasnt creeping. It just builds boost slowly (when running spring pressure only) to resist over shooting the target level when you stab the throttle at high rpm..tip in or an up shift.

torque is low because of this. if it makes 200ft lbs with 10 psi...the torque will eventually fall off up top. Adding boost as rpm climbs will "resist" the falling of the torque. stupid f*cking stock IM

I actually bought thirdgen's old setup, which is a journal bearing "2560" with an ewg. Should be interesting to compare how that one ends up. He sent this thread to me a few days ago just so I could see what to expect.

WHY DOESNT ANYONE SELL AN OTS SHEET METAL INTAKE MANIFOLD FOR BP'S BESIDES FCKING BEGI. literally every other 4 cylinder platform in existence has a SMIM. especially mitsu and honda stuff. Someone. please. bolt on, lightweight, aluminum, mass produced, dyno proven, pnp, stock throttle cable, badass vacuum block on the back, 7-800 $$$

MUST BE NICE TO BE A FIRST GEN DSM OWNER. A QUICK $560 AND THIS IS YOURS
https://cimg9.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.mia...cb96e3a207.jpg

/rant

Use a honda mani?

Because the R&D costs to build half a dozen or more to figure out what works the best quickly destroys any chance of ROI in the miata community.

not much R&D....seems like a fabricator could copy the plenum size and runner length of just about any decent SMIM and it would flow better than the stock BP mani. I mean people are going as far as hacking up ebay knock off honda manis just assuming they flow better. Seems like plenty of people would pay $600+ for a bolt on mani. then again this is the miata community...

edit: probably not enough people making the power to actually justify one. Majority of turbo miata owners are happy with stock engine 250hp i guess

You are newer to the miata scene, so you don't know what has or has not been tried. Begi has done a ton of different testing of various designs over the past 10+ years. Unfortunately none have worked as good as they or anyone else wants. You either give up power low or mid end, to get top end, or vice versa. Or you end up where on a stock motor, it works worse then the stock IM, but on a built motor running more power, it starts to work well. For a while Begi sold a cast IM that worked rather well with built motors. They had problems getting them cast with a good quality at a price people would buy.

I have looked into building my own IM. Cost alone for materials and labor will most likely run you between $400-$600 per manifold. Welding aluminum is not cheap or easy. So figure you need to build 3-5 different manifolds, with different runner lengths, and possibly different box designs around then. Then dyno time for each one to figure out how well they work, and then being able to compare so you actually are selling a product that works, and works, how you want it to. So figured minimal $2000 in material and labor, then another $500-$1000 for dyno time. So you are looking around $2500 minimal in total R&D costs to possibly figure it out. Then you get to pricing them out. To make a reasonable margin on the IM they will have to be sold in the $700-$900 range. You would need to sell 10-15 IM minimum to break even on R&D costs. The market for IM in the miata world is not overly large. I can think of maybe 10-15 people total who will actually need one and be willing to spend the much money on one.

Also you have to remember that Soviet made 450whp on either the VICs or flattop intake manifold. So you can make more power on a stock IM then the transmission can handle.

why would you want an IM made for 10,000RPM peak power on a miata?

I dont. I just dont want the power falling off after 6k. Maybe the bigger .86 housing on my gtx28 will help with that. Or ill add some boost up in the rpms

There's a mazdaspeed ITB setup on the classifieds right now.

:firedevil

anyone know if this will work? so much conflicting info on deleting the heater core and coolant routing...

https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.mia...4ead3c4408.png

Are you running a flat top? If the intake manifold flows better up top there is a good chance you will loose low end torque.

Just add boost up top if you want the keep torque up. Also it's not like a 2560 is a huge turbo.


That will work fine for coolant routing.

*see post 25*

Just stock 99 mani. Going with a gtx2867 .86 ar exhaust housing. Goal is 330-340whp

I guess ill have to get it on a dyno and see how hard it falls up top before i think about a new IM.

that setup/turbo on e85 should hit 330 without any issues.
I bet you can push it to 400 if you really wanted to.
I personally wouldn't go .86 ar, but I guess it depends on where you like your power. I can't imagine this thing choking up top with a vta ewg, unless that funky placement chokes it up

This setup will hit 330. And I'll keep turning it up until I start breaking drive train parts or most likely a stock piston. It will be fun either way. Im going to have it set up pretty simple where ill be able to pull the engine in an hour or so


I really should go with the smaller housing just to see what it will do. If im happy i could leave it. If not ill try out the big .86. Whats an extra $400 tial housing anyway lmao its a slippery slope for sure

It just depends on what you really want. For #racecar people throw away powerband for that extra 20hp at redline. those of us who enjoy our cars daily will gladly trade 20hp at redline for 200rpm worth of spool down low. the difference is drastic in how the car feels below 10/10ths

The car is more of a weekend toy/giggle machine. Im going to start with the .86 housing because my goal is to run 11s with it so i may just need the extra hp up top. If i really cant stand the slower spool then i will try the smaller housing. The only car ive driven with an aftermarket turbo is my own 2560r miata so i dont have a lot of expectations. Imo the gt28 is relatively small anyway.

I cant wait for the spring time :)

The heater core is a good heat exchanger. If it doesn't leak, don't block it.

Its been said before but ill say it again: if the heater is needed to cool the engine, then I have bigger problems.

Have you had to deal with the rubber hoses on the firewall? Royal PITA. I want simplicity. So when I break a piston i can put in another engine in an afternoon

I'm running the GTX2867R on a built NA8 engine on pump 93 with the .86 housing. My build thread has a recent virtual dyno with a FM log manifold. I'm putting a tubular manifold on it this weekend and will have updated power and spool results within a couple of weeks. I went with the. 86 to give up spool for more open flow and heat reduction on the track. The manifold should help realize those goals. Besides, if I'm below 4000rpm on the track and needing to accelerate then I should have downshifted.

Ill have a decent amount of timing with e85, and 9.5:1 pistons. Plus VTA wastegate and a proper 3 inch exhaust. Im hoping it will spool pretty good. Im excited to see how it feels in practice. Especially after being used to the gt25. If i dont like how it feels, ill get the .63 and swap in an afternoon. (I love -an lines and v bands:)

This. Go with the .86 for all the reasons mentioned here.

Bigger A/R will keep backpressure on engine down, which helps prevent detonation. Good for engine life. :)

Also +1 to that dyno OP, pretty flat torque curve! Hope I can get something similar soon as I'm changing up my setup to have a good header as well. I think your manifold is why it holds torque better than most BPs. I bet a larger A/R on that turbo would flatten the torque out even more once it's spooled.

how big is the oil drain opening on the turbo? Will a -10 AN line be enough?

Can I please get some input from others on these other hose sizes so I can order all my fittings and lines?

Turbo oil feed: -4
Turbo oil drain: -10
Turbo water lines: -6
Valve cover breathers: -10
Fuel return: -6
Fuel feed: stock 5/16 hard line

I'm not running an AN drain line. I believe what I have as is a half inch inside diameter high temp low pressure hydraulic hose.

Anyone know where I could buy a single acl race std size rod bearing? Lol. I done messed up. I dont want to buy a whole set if i dont have to

(see nick on top right)
https://cimg4.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.mia...e7bab99348.jpg

Can a mod move this to build thread section? pretty please?

done

Cleaned stock pistons with mineral spirits and a copper brush. 42k miles of carbon build up came off pretty easy
https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.mia...76147d0190.jpg

Assembled rotating assembly with arp main studs, manley rods w/ arp 2000 rod bolts, and standard size acl race rod, main, thrust bearings.

Since the crank and oem bearings looked great due to their low mileage and frequent oil changes, I decided to throw in some standard size bearings. I was confident that I didnt even need to measure clearances bc of the condition of the crank and the "standard size" of the bearings.

After several sleepless nights on mt.net reading about oil clearances, bearings, torque specs, machine work, etc, I decided I needed to at least plastigauge the clearances.

I took apart the entire assembly, cleaned all the assembly lube off, (not fun) and plastigauged everything. Good news: Every main and rod journal is right at the loose end of factory specs. And they were all very consistent. Win. Bad news: (see photo in post above) I put a nice nick in a rod bearing trying to rip the rod cap off the rod during measurement.
https://cimg9.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.mia...5580d6e1a6.jpg

this mistake will set me back 1 week and $50 for a set of bearings in which I only need 1 of the 8 in the set. But now ill be able to sleep better not worrying about oil clearances. Well worth a week and $50 imo

Ive seen it posted before, but i just love this comparison
https://cimg7.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.mia...d92825dacf.jpg


still to do: install BE oil pump, wait for rod bearings, seal oil pan, install head, order new turbo, plumb an oil/water lines, plumb new fuel system setup, turn key. (if only it was that easy!)

My previous plan was a gtx2867 for 350-maybe 400whp.

After many hours of research and thinking, ive decided to go with the bigger GT3071.

Yes its old tech w/ the cast wheel and yes it will spool a little slower, BUT I still think it will suit my needs better than a gtx2871. why?

-Im sick of buying turbos. I want headroom. 350whp isnt going to be enough. 400whp might not be enough. Im always going to want more. I dont want to be limited by the turbo

-Im after a certain exhaust note. I hate how miatas sound. They are buzzy and raspy. I believe small exhaust housings dont help with this. Yes, I know im not going to get the perfect sound im after with a stock head/cams, but the bigger housing may help deepen the tone. and moar loud. Because 22 year old.

-Lastly, the gt28 is still a relatively small turbo. Ive read alot of stuff on other platforms, (vw/audi/ford) that the gtx28s still stuggle to flow their advertised horsepower due to the small exhaust side. Which makes perfect sense -you could have a bitchin cold side with a big fancy billet wheel, but if the turbine cant flow enough, you cant make big hp up top.

even 18psi agrees. (well maybe...that was 6 years ago)
https://cimg9.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.mia...d46791b4f4.png

Have run small/big/huge turbos on miata. Can confirm bigger exhaust housing on turbo = louder/deeper/less muffled exhaust note.

Ive heard of you.

I cant wait to hear this thing rip. I think its going to sound pretty unique with the external gate, big turbo, "high" compression, and increased timing with e85.

(Thanks for all your help answering my messages concerning stock piston stuff )

the e85 will be the biggest contributor to deeper sound aside from exhaust. it changes the tone for all cars

og 3071 won't make more than 400, at least I really doubt it (or unless it's on a moon dyno). But anything over a legit 350 is seriously fast so who cares. you'll be busy replacing 5 speeds anyway

Coffee pot full. Now to google search gtx3067,gtx3071,gt3071,gt3076

its gonna be a late night!