Luke's "I have an EFR but refuse to use it" Build
03-28-2014, 10:24 PM
#62
I suggested the XX rings to Andrew a while back. He tried and I guess he liked. Pretty sure NPR Japan makes the XX rings also. The standard NPR rings that ship with Supertech pistons are much lower tension than OEM. The XX's are just slightly below OEM tension. We find the XX's don't burn any oil even if you get the install slightly wrong. The NPR's allow for slightly lower oil temps, maybe a teeny bit more power but will burn a tiny bit of oil even when installed perfect. Get the hone or break in wrong and they'll burn more oil.
We felt the tiny gain in power and lower oil temps wasn't worth it and switched to the XX for every motor we build. Nothing wrong with the standard NPR's, particularly for sprint and drag racing which is ST's target customer. For the endurance racing team (us) and guy that daily drives and HPDE or occasional autocrosser, we think the XX is a better choice.
We felt the tiny gain in power and lower oil temps wasn't worth it and switched to the XX for every motor we build. Nothing wrong with the standard NPR's, particularly for sprint and drag racing which is ST's target customer. For the endurance racing team (us) and guy that daily drives and HPDE or occasional autocrosser, we think the XX is a better choice.
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04-02-2014, 12:00 AM
#63
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I CAN HAZ TIME TO WORK ON MOTOR???
Ok, back from "Spring Break" and finally got some hours to work on continuing the assembly of this motor.
First step was to check the ring gap on my new, super sweet, super low tension, SUPERTECH piston rings.
Most of the top rings came out of the box at about 0.001" but needed to be more like 0.0018", the 2nd rings came out about 0.0014" but were supposed to be 0.0020". At least according to my maths and ST's recommendation.
I borrowed the world's worst ring filer and went to work. And it sucked. The filer was...the worst, and the process is generally miserable. Clean, oil, check clearance, grind a bit, check grind, clean, oil ring, check clearance, repeat a thousand times.
The ring filer I was using probably made the job two to three times worse than it needed to be, but it was borrowed so...
I got bored of filing piston rings so I decided to check the rod bearing clearance.
Looks like it is somewhere between 0.0015" and 0.0020", but closer to 0.0015". Great, within the OEM spec.
I decided to do the ring filing and assembly one cylinder at a time so I could feel like I was actually accomplishing something, and not get bored with awful, awful ring filing.
Here's cylinder 1 piston/rod assembly ready for install. The piston ring compressor I bought is generally terrible, I would not recommend it. I learned how to use it better after cylinder one, ie don't do it like it's pictured, have the ring compressor go all they way to the bottom of the skirt.
As you can see I was enjoying some Yuengling Light lager whilst performing this work. This is a no-no, never consume alcoholic beverages whilst performing very delicate, precise work like engine assembly.
At the end of last night I was 1/2 done.
This morning and this evening I was able to finish cylinders three and four.
The next step is to install the rear cover with oil seal, reinstall the oil pan and stuffs, etc. etc.
Well all of that stuff is incredibly dirty so I went to work making a bath for those parts. I happened to have a plastic storage container that just was the right size for putting an oil pan and other parts in it, so I filled it with hot water and Purple Power and started scrubbing.
Here is the oil pan hiding in it's bath...
The pan is currently soaking. I'm not Jeffbucc, so I generally hate this part. I would rather assemble engine then clean engine.
I should probably drill and tap the pan before installing it. I should probably also throw a lick of paint on it. Those with sharp eyes will have noticed that at some point I painted the block with some awful, boring, gray VHT engine paint. If you look closely enough you can see the quality of the paint job is extremely lacking, I had one TOO many Yuengling Light lagers that night, and it was probably 45F in my garage. Better than rusting though...
So, since the engine is waiting for ancillary parts to be cleaned, it's all wrapped up and ready for bed.
A WORD ABOUT PISTON RING FILING - For Fireindc
Any "instructions" or "guides" to ring filing will warn you to take your time, and slowly and cautiously file small amounts of material off of the rings. DO THAT. I got a little impatient and over did it on a couple of my 2nd rings (cylinders 2 and 4), and maybe one of the top rings. YOU CAN'T ADD MATERIAL, only REMOVE. So yea, have patience, use a decent ring filer, and go slow. My target 2nd ring gaps were ~ 0.0020", and two of mine ended up about 0.0024". Four ten thousandths may not be much in the long run, but the gap is ~20% bigger than it "should" be. What will the actual affect be on the motor, probably not much, maybe just some minor increase in oil consumption on cylinders 2 and 4.
Either way, take it slow and easy on the ring filing, even if it sucks.
A WORD ABOUT PHOTOGRAPHY
In my first post in this thread I may have made some "promise" that I was going to be using my wifes DSLR for taking pictures. Well, I haven't. I've been taking most of them with an iPhone, and I apologize now for the shitty, cell phone, poorly lit pictures I've been plastering all over this thread. The fact of the matter is, getting out the DSLR and transferring the pictures and editing them, etc. etc., would add significant time to this process. I have precious little time. Also, please forgive me for the white cardboard box on the floor under the engine, I should probably move that.
Please forgive me for the poopy quality pics...
First step was to check the ring gap on my new, super sweet, super low tension, SUPERTECH piston rings.
Most of the top rings came out of the box at about 0.001" but needed to be more like 0.0018", the 2nd rings came out about 0.0014" but were supposed to be 0.0020". At least according to my maths and ST's recommendation.
I borrowed the world's worst ring filer and went to work. And it sucked. The filer was...the worst, and the process is generally miserable. Clean, oil, check clearance, grind a bit, check grind, clean, oil ring, check clearance, repeat a thousand times.
The ring filer I was using probably made the job two to three times worse than it needed to be, but it was borrowed so...
I got bored of filing piston rings so I decided to check the rod bearing clearance.
Looks like it is somewhere between 0.0015" and 0.0020", but closer to 0.0015". Great, within the OEM spec.
I decided to do the ring filing and assembly one cylinder at a time so I could feel like I was actually accomplishing something, and not get bored with awful, awful ring filing.
Here's cylinder 1 piston/rod assembly ready for install. The piston ring compressor I bought is generally terrible, I would not recommend it. I learned how to use it better after cylinder one, ie don't do it like it's pictured, have the ring compressor go all they way to the bottom of the skirt.
As you can see I was enjoying some Yuengling Light lager whilst performing this work. This is a no-no, never consume alcoholic beverages whilst performing very delicate, precise work like engine assembly.
At the end of last night I was 1/2 done.
This morning and this evening I was able to finish cylinders three and four.
The next step is to install the rear cover with oil seal, reinstall the oil pan and stuffs, etc. etc.
Well all of that stuff is incredibly dirty so I went to work making a bath for those parts. I happened to have a plastic storage container that just was the right size for putting an oil pan and other parts in it, so I filled it with hot water and Purple Power and started scrubbing.
Here is the oil pan hiding in it's bath...
The pan is currently soaking. I'm not Jeffbucc, so I generally hate this part. I would rather assemble engine then clean engine.
I should probably drill and tap the pan before installing it. I should probably also throw a lick of paint on it. Those with sharp eyes will have noticed that at some point I painted the block with some awful, boring, gray VHT engine paint. If you look closely enough you can see the quality of the paint job is extremely lacking, I had one TOO many Yuengling Light lagers that night, and it was probably 45F in my garage. Better than rusting though...
So, since the engine is waiting for ancillary parts to be cleaned, it's all wrapped up and ready for bed.
A WORD ABOUT PISTON RING FILING - For Fireindc
Any "instructions" or "guides" to ring filing will warn you to take your time, and slowly and cautiously file small amounts of material off of the rings. DO THAT. I got a little impatient and over did it on a couple of my 2nd rings (cylinders 2 and 4), and maybe one of the top rings. YOU CAN'T ADD MATERIAL, only REMOVE. So yea, have patience, use a decent ring filer, and go slow. My target 2nd ring gaps were ~ 0.0020", and two of mine ended up about 0.0024". Four ten thousandths may not be much in the long run, but the gap is ~20% bigger than it "should" be. What will the actual affect be on the motor, probably not much, maybe just some minor increase in oil consumption on cylinders 2 and 4.
Either way, take it slow and easy on the ring filing, even if it sucks.
A WORD ABOUT PHOTOGRAPHY
In my first post in this thread I may have made some "promise" that I was going to be using my wifes DSLR for taking pictures. Well, I haven't. I've been taking most of them with an iPhone, and I apologize now for the shitty, cell phone, poorly lit pictures I've been plastering all over this thread. The fact of the matter is, getting out the DSLR and transferring the pictures and editing them, etc. etc., would add significant time to this process. I have precious little time. Also, please forgive me for the white cardboard box on the floor under the engine, I should probably move that.
Please forgive me for the poopy quality pics...
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04-02-2014, 01:03 AM
#66
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Holy **** thanks for the detailed pictures of everything. We all appreciate it 
A regular file "should" be fine if you get the angle right, but i agree and that is also the next tool I'm going to buy.
Any idea of what a "good" one is to get?
Any idea of what a "good" one is to get?
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04-02-2014, 10:08 AM
#67
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like this --->
But 1000x worse. It's almost like the one I was using had been dropped a few dozen times, and the grinding wheel was all wobbly and awful. It made it very difficult to get an even grind on it.
I seriously doubt all of my ring gaps are perfectly even, but most of them were pretty good...
Yes, it's very "drinkable".
Actually the one I used looks more like this --> http://www.summitracing.com/parts/sum-906795/overview/
but with a wobbly grinding wheel.
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04-03-2014, 11:24 AM
#69
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One time I read (maybe on this website) the best thing you can do for a project car is to work on it every day, even if only for 15 or 20 minutes.
So last night I got a few spare minutes and put the rear main seal on. Hopefully I got it aligned correctly and it doesn't leak.
Hopefully
Tonight I plan to do the oil pump and maybe try to finish cleaning the oil pan.
Little by little
That is all
So last night I got a few spare minutes and put the rear main seal on. Hopefully I got it aligned correctly and it doesn't leak.
Hopefully
Tonight I plan to do the oil pump and maybe try to finish cleaning the oil pan.
Little by little
That is all
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04-03-2014, 01:02 PM
#71
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It is really amazing how fast it gets done when you work on it every day. Stopping is the hard part though. I can't just leave whatever small project I'm doing unfinished. Or, by the time you look at the time, 3 hours have gone by.
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04-03-2014, 01:20 PM
#72
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It gets even more difficult when you have a full time job, two kids, and wife who works full time, and you're trying to finish a bathroom remodel...
Not a lot of free time for d*cking around in the garage
Not a lot of free time for d*cking around in the garage
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04-03-2014, 01:50 PM
#74
Soooo haha. I tried using regular files because that's all I had and I also had never rebuilt a motor. After getting nowhere on the first one and struggling I desperately called around and was unable to find anything. I was on the way home and stopped in a harbor freight... found these little gems 10 Piece Diamond Grit Needle File Set
Surprisingly they worked fantastically. They filed the rings down very quickly and quite cleanly. I only used one file specifically and it was a magical $8 spent.
I know not the best practice but it is what I did and so far so good.
Surprisingly they worked fantastically. They filed the rings down very quickly and quite cleanly. I only used one file specifically and it was a magical $8 spent.
I know not the best practice but it is what I did and so far so good.
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04-03-2014, 03:34 PM
#75
A WORD ABOUT PHOTOGRAPHY
In my first post in this thread I may have made some "promise" that I was going to be using my wifes DSLR for taking pictures. Well, I haven't. I've been taking most of them with an iPhone, and I apologize now for the shitty, cell phone, poorly lit pictures I've been plastering all over this thread. The fact of the matter is, getting out the DSLR and transferring the pictures and editing them, etc. etc., would add significant time to this process. I have precious little time. Also, please forgive me for the white cardboard box on the floor under the engine, I should probably move that.
Please forgive me for the poopy quality pics...
In my first post in this thread I may have made some "promise" that I was going to be using my wifes DSLR for taking pictures. Well, I haven't. I've been taking most of them with an iPhone, and I apologize now for the shitty, cell phone, poorly lit pictures I've been plastering all over this thread. The fact of the matter is, getting out the DSLR and transferring the pictures and editing them, etc. etc., would add significant time to this process. I have precious little time. Also, please forgive me for the white cardboard box on the floor under the engine, I should probably move that.
Please forgive me for the poopy quality pics...
that's why i love my Nokia Lumia 1020
just look at this quality!
no ediiting...staright off the phone...
**** an iphone! lol
greate build by the way.
many mistakes..but well..it is alla bout having fun, right?
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04-09-2014, 07:44 PM
#77
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Well the plan to do at least one thing per day on the engine build hasn't been working. I've been too busy with kids and a bathroom remodel.
I did however, spend some time dyno'ing my POS DD today.
Cruddy cell phone picture of a cruddy old computer monitor, but you get the idea. No torque, that's the idea.
My daily is a 2000 Civic EX that I swapped an "ITS" prepped B16 into. I had been running an off-the-shelf Hondata "stock b16" tune, and apparently it was pretty close as I was only able to pick up ~5whp peak, and only a 2-4 throughout the rev range.
I did improve the A/F curve (not shown) but really the OTS Hondata tune was pretty good.
The crazy torque drop from 4600-5100 rpms might be because of an intake restriction, or I could have fubar'd the VTEC point. I kept meaning to do a run with the VTEC point up about 5200 rpms, but never did. On that graph, the VTEC point is set at like 3800 rpms, and the high lift lobe might not be any good until after 5000.
In the end it doesn't really matter because if you shift at 8200 rpm, you never drop below 5500 rpm.
Anyways, 160whp and near as makes no difference, zero torque.
(The dotted lines on the graph are not the "initial runs" but some in-between run. The "initial runs" were another ~2 whp about everywhere compared to the dotted lines).
The car needs some EV14s, and higher fp, and a better intake, and maybe an IM (to make power past 7500rpms), but it's my DD so who gives a poop.
I did however, spend some time dyno'ing my POS DD today.
Cruddy cell phone picture of a cruddy old computer monitor, but you get the idea. No torque, that's the idea.
My daily is a 2000 Civic EX that I swapped an "ITS" prepped B16 into. I had been running an off-the-shelf Hondata "stock b16" tune, and apparently it was pretty close as I was only able to pick up ~5whp peak, and only a 2-4 throughout the rev range.
I did improve the A/F curve (not shown) but really the OTS Hondata tune was pretty good.
The crazy torque drop from 4600-5100 rpms might be because of an intake restriction, or I could have fubar'd the VTEC point. I kept meaning to do a run with the VTEC point up about 5200 rpms, but never did. On that graph, the VTEC point is set at like 3800 rpms, and the high lift lobe might not be any good until after 5000.
In the end it doesn't really matter because if you shift at 8200 rpm, you never drop below 5500 rpm.
Anyways, 160whp and near as makes no difference, zero torque.
(The dotted lines on the graph are not the "initial runs" but some in-between run. The "initial runs" were another ~2 whp about everywhere compared to the dotted lines).
The car needs some EV14s, and higher fp, and a better intake, and maybe an IM (to make power past 7500rpms), but it's my DD so who gives a poop.
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04-11-2014, 12:26 AM
#80
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So, still no time to work on the miata or the miata engine BUT...
The VTEC changeover point thingy was really bugging me so I went back and re-dyno'd the daily.
Here's the car since Fireindc is so interested
engine gay (whoops, bay)
And real dyno screen grabs, the two sets of lines show the first couple pulls I did with the OTS hondata b16 tune, and the final tune I am using. Unfortunately it's really difficult to read because all of the lines are dotted, and all of them are the same colors. Uh...yea
So I excel'd the data outputs from Dynapack to make that sh*t moah readable. Green is the final tune on the car, with the VTEC point set at 5200rpm. Red is one of the earlier runs, mostly OTS Hondata b16 tune with a 3800rpm VTEC switch-over. Solid lines are the horsepowers, dotted is the (not) torquez.
TLDR: Moving the VTEC point up gave an increase of over 10wtq, and like 12-13 whp at ~4900rpm. 10wtq out of 90 is a LOT. I'm pretty sure this car has Type-R cams so that might explain why the high lift cam lobe is not so good under 5000rpms.
The car definitely pulls more "smoothly" now, if you do a run from 2500rpm - 8000+
Engine specs (AFAIK):
B16A2
0.040" overbore stock compression pistons
Civic Type R cams
Comptech Ice box intake w/ type R intake tube
Comptech Header
Ebay "Hi-po" catalyst
Ebay "Quiet" 2.5" exhaust
Ebay radiator
Hondata S300 ECU
some aftermarket FPR that isn't doing anything atm
other than that it is stocky stocky stock.
The Hondata says my injector duty cycle is 87% at peak power, so it seems some EV14s could go a long way on this car but, A: it's my daily, I dun care, and B: Access to free dyno is no more.
I need to do install one of my widebands and do some street tuning because my mpgs aren't so great, about 26-27ish. I'm pretty sure I should be seeing over 30 the way I drive, plus it's a 1.6!?!?!?!
So yea, no time to work on the miata, but 3+ hours spent dyno'ing my **** -a$$, crap, unimportant daily the last couple days...
The VTEC changeover point thingy was really bugging me so I went back and re-dyno'd the daily.
Here's the car since Fireindc is so interested
engine gay (whoops, bay)
And real dyno screen grabs, the two sets of lines show the first couple pulls I did with the OTS hondata b16 tune, and the final tune I am using. Unfortunately it's really difficult to read because all of the lines are dotted, and all of them are the same colors. Uh...yea
So I excel'd the data outputs from Dynapack to make that sh*t moah readable. Green is the final tune on the car, with the VTEC point set at 5200rpm. Red is one of the earlier runs, mostly OTS Hondata b16 tune with a 3800rpm VTEC switch-over. Solid lines are the horsepowers, dotted is the (not) torquez.
TLDR: Moving the VTEC point up gave an increase of over 10wtq, and like 12-13 whp at ~4900rpm. 10wtq out of 90 is a LOT. I'm pretty sure this car has Type-R cams so that might explain why the high lift cam lobe is not so good under 5000rpms.
The car definitely pulls more "smoothly" now, if you do a run from 2500rpm - 8000+
Engine specs (AFAIK):
B16A2
0.040" overbore stock compression pistons
Civic Type R cams
Comptech Ice box intake w/ type R intake tube
Comptech Header
Ebay "Hi-po" catalyst
Ebay "Quiet" 2.5" exhaust
Ebay radiator
Hondata S300 ECU
some aftermarket FPR that isn't doing anything atm
other than that it is stocky stocky stock.
The Hondata says my injector duty cycle is 87% at peak power, so it seems some EV14s could go a long way on this car but, A: it's my daily, I dun care, and B: Access to free dyno is no more.
I need to do install one of my widebands and do some street tuning because my mpgs aren't so great, about 26-27ish. I'm pretty sure I should be seeing over 30 the way I drive, plus it's a 1.6!?!?!?!
So yea, no time to work on the miata, but 3+ hours spent dyno'ing my **** -a$$, crap, unimportant daily the last couple days...
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