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Never ending, Mostly winter, turbo NB project.
20 Attachment(s)
Hi! i'm new here, i'm from Quebec, Canada.
Bought my NB July 2010, my 3rd winter off. https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1354581429 https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1354581429 This is what it looked like when i bought it, the previous owner got a NB2 bumper on but "fitted" the NB1 headlight + El cheapo universal fog lights. So this is 2010, i got it off the road for winter n.1. The project was : -Maintenance -Suspension -Chassis -Mild Performance upgrade So i got the t-belt done and all front seals/water pump. Being there, i tought good to get a MSM cam, wich had a bit more lift, butg good enought with stock ECM. https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1354581429 https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1354581429 https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1354581429 Got some OEM fog lights https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1354581429 Bossfrog frog arms https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1354581429 Tein SS with New OEM mounts https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1354581429 K&N and acc. https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1354581429 RB RSFB and Axle-Back https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1354581429 SS Brake hose https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1354581429 No pro washer bottle and coolant bottle https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1354581429 https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1354581429 FM stage I clutch w/10.3lbs FW https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1354581429 FM sways/Energy suspension bushings/ RB endlinks https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1354581429 TR motorsport w/ S.drive 205/50R15 https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1354581429 So the winter finished like that So i got to the summer and keeped going New top and style bar delete https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1354581429 https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1354581429 RB headers, custom intake heat shield. https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1354581429 And that is how she sit before winter n.2! https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1354581429 |
your hood is broken
fix it otherwise nice |
Originally Posted by 18psi
(Post 955612)
your hood is broken
fix it otherwise nice |
Now for winter n.3
This is what i have in mind! Engine management(since i hate voodoo and static retard) This is were i am going to need you guys! Fuel(Fuel pump, Rail, Injectors) Coolant reroute Minor body fix This is were my mind is blinded, ECU's i never tuned a car before, but i work on cars everyday, and i troubleshoot them as well. i'm not sure on what ECU to go too w/ my non-experience. Checked out hydra for long, but they are expensive, and people around here don't seem to like it that much. Checked out alot the MS, but then i have a few choice(in plug n play) The MS2 PnP or the Braineak version MS3. Did'nt check much the Adaptronic or the AEM So do you guys have any suggestion on what to look for. i need a solid base map for sure. Remember i'm with stock interns, have a GT2560, and don't plan on much more than 10-12PSI And i am open on any suggestion for fuel pump, injectors and rail (i had Walbro 255, rx-8 inj., and M-tuned rail w/ some sort of ajustable regulator in mind) |
Originally Posted by sr20det_28
(Post 955622)
Hood risers have been removed!
Now I can get back to enjoying your progress. So far I'm liking it a lot. Good job |
Originally Posted by 18psi
(Post 955643)
very good :)
Now I can get back to enjoying your progress. So far I'm liking it a lot. Good job |
Go megasquirt. Stock fuel pump is fine, get some 500+cc injectors.
Build looks great so far. |
Originally Posted by Fireindc
(Post 955912)
Go megasquirt. Stock fuel pump is fine, get some 500+cc injectors.
Build looks great so far. |
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Oh, and, i love that one!
https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1354664407 |
Originally Posted by sr20det_28
(Post 955948)
I read alot of stock 99+ pump that they then to go lean approching redline, wich is with mine, i just don't know if it's that OR the injector, i'm still running stock injectors, wich i think are pretty small running 9psi.
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That list pic is neat, lol.
And I agree it's your injectors.. Get an EMS and some injectors, then tune it. If you cant get enough fuel to run your target AFR (high 11's) then you may need a pump. Until then i highly doubt the pump is the issue. |
Nice car! FM really does make a nice kit.
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basically you need all 3 to do it right.
if you're spending money on injectors and ems, its idiotic not to get a $80 walbro pump too |
Originally Posted by 18psi
(Post 956320)
basically you need all 3 to do it right.
if you're spending money on injectors and ems, its idiotic not to get a $80 walbro pump too or will i need to make a return system out off my returnless? |
yes. mine handled the 255 HP just fine.
others reported the same or you could just get the 190HP which is even cheaper and will still work just fine for your power level |
Originally Posted by viperormiata
(Post 956291)
Nice car! FM really does make a nice kit.
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Originally Posted by 18psi
(Post 956329)
yes. mine handled the 255 HP just fine.
others reported the same or you could just get the 190HP which is even cheaper and will still work just fine for your power level I'm just not sure about the fuel rail, i affraid to be a bit overkill for the output i want this summer. |
Originally Posted by 18psi
(Post 956320)
basically you need all 3 to do it right.
if you're spending money on injectors and ems, its idiotic not to get a $80 walbro pump too I've yet to have fueling problems so far. Serious question, btw - because I was under the assumption that the stock pump is fine. |
Unless you're running high fuel pressures the stock pump is fine. I don't really know why 18psi is recommending one.
Plenty of cars make 250+ with the stock pump, as long as you have appropriately sized injectors for the power you want to make and AFR's are holding steady (and PW doesn't spike dramatically implying the pump is not supplying the fuel you need). The stock pump can flow enough fuel for 300bhp, just. It's worth re-wiring it with it's own direct relayed fuse though See SlowMX5 - ECU and Electronics for guidance on re-wiring the pump. |
:facepalm:
Just because "it will get the job done for xx" doesn't mean its ideal or good. I typed up a giant post about why I think it would be stupid, but don't want to clutter this thread. Even found a flow chart for the pumps. If you're really interested, we can discuss. We give noobs a hard time about half assing things. Here we have a guy that wants to do everything properly and you're telling him to half ass it. |
It's not half assed, it's just not a requirement that's all, did yo follow my link? Does that car look half assed to you?
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Not a requirement for who knows how much power/flow? Oh that's right "just crank it up dawg, when you start to run out of fuel and leaning out, then upgrade". I'm sorry, I'm not bashing either of you, and personally have done it myself for a short while (on my 1st turbo setup), but I just wouldn't recomend that.
Its kinda like we were all led to believe before that the 8-10psi fm voodoo kits are "ok" on stock fueling components til most started reporting major lean-ness and maxed out injectors even at 7psi |
I'm not gonna fight about this. OP can come to his own conclusions
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Originally Posted by 18psi
(Post 956441)
:facepalm:
Just because "it will get the job done for xx" doesn't mean its ideal or good. I typed up a giant post about why I think it would be stupid, but don't want to clutter this thread. Even found a flow chart for the pumps. If you're really interested, we can discuss. We give noobs a hard time about half assing things. Here we have a guy that wants to do everything properly and you're telling him to half ass it. I'll take your word for it though, and start looking for a new pump for my 1.8 build. I want to make the car e85 capable anyways, and know I would most likely need more pump for that. |
for e85 I would suggest looking at the dw lineup, which cost about the same and work silently ;)
Just ordered a dw200 myself |
Stock pump if fine for a stock motor (for NA at least, not sure about you NB fags). Unless you need a new pump, then upgrade while you have it out and do the rest of the fueling system while you're at it. I made the mistake of doing piece by piece. OP mentions built motor, so use bigger pump!
OP, VooDoo box is scary stuff. There are reports of cars going really lean using stock fueling components. |
Reading comprehension FTW!
Originally Posted by sr20det_28
Remember i'm with stock interns, have a GT2560, and don't plan on much more than 10-12PSI
But from my understanding you shouldn't need to do that until you go for some BORG WARNER S366 action. |
DW300, best pump ever made. especially considering that used fuel pumps have almost no resale value.
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Wow! now thats a debate!!!
Budget for a pump here is not really a issue, i just don't want to go too overkill. i did mention a built motor, but not now, because THAT is a budget issue haha! i'm changing the pump and regulator anyway, i had a few report of pressure lost last summer, plus, the pump have 10XXXX miles on it, i'm there, why not put up a few bucks more for a good, high flowing, reliable pump! The labor here is also not an issue, i have all winter + lift and all equipment i need! So i'm kind of into the 255HP, it's not too expensive, so we got that one on the list! Now, knowing that i'm changing the regulator, could the extra labor of making a return line w/ Adj. regulator would be worth it? If so, what would be the best way to do it? Yes i know, i'm asking alot of question, but my tuning experience is a bit low! |
Originally Posted by viperormiata
(Post 956496)
OP, VooDoo box is scary stuff. There are reports of cars going really lean using stock fueling components.
I'm curious of seeing those report tho! if you have quick links i would love too read that! :o |
if you're going for big power, might as well convert to return style. otherwise the 255hp will easily get you to 300-400
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Using a bigger pump on the NB (DW300, WB 255, etc), does it require a different FPR? Or will the stock one suffice? Also, any issues with running the bigger pump on the stock ecu (for when I go to OBDII compliant mode)?
Sorry for the OT, just got excited about the fuel pump discussion. Very nice build! |
Originally Posted by sr20det_28
(Post 956335)
I'm planning maxing the GT25 in a few years(built engine), so maybe the best would be to go for the 255, for the price difference...
Originally Posted by thenuge26
(Post 956505)
Reading comprehension FTW!
OP, you're on the right track. If you know you're gooing above 250whp and building the motor, then yes, it won't hurt at all to start getting your supporting mods done now. |
1 Attachment(s)
After holidays i should get parts coming in, i got a to do list going up!
https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1355194892 Excuse my poor writting here! |
Originally Posted by czubaka
(Post 956694)
Using a bigger pump on the NB (DW300, WB 255, etc), does it require a different FPR? Or will the stock one suffice? Also, any issues with running the bigger pump on the stock ecu (for when I go to OBDII compliant mode)?
Sorry for the OT, just got excited about the fuel pump discussion. Very nice build! - stock 91 FPR - stock 91 fuel lines - stock 91 fuel filter - stock 99 fuel rail - stock fuel filter - Deatschwerks DW300 fuel pump kit - Injector Dynamics 1000cc - Gates Barricade 225psi fuel hose (Part #H344A/H344A/H349A/H354A at NAPA) Basically everything stock except pump, fuel injectors and some good fuel hose. |
I seem to remember where someone tested a factory NB pump and it had trouble keeping the pressure up @ 7k running N/A with stock injectors.
Fuel Pump - Miata Turbo FAQ Vlad is right, the $80 wally pump is a no brainier. The 190HP should be fine, and IIRC the amprage draw isn't that much of a hit compared to stock. |
Will the amp difference of the 255HP cause trouble?
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Leonid, thanks for the info! Are you running a return-less system with that 99 fuel rail?
Joel, treadstone has a fuel pump wiring kit for $30 that I may try to avoid any power issues. People just don't realize that some good hose can change the world... |
I'm about 98% sure Leonid is running a return on his system.
I've actually got a complete fuel line from a friends NB that will end up in my car, once I figure out how to plumb it in. The NB returnless system is a disaster with the regulator in the tank and no vacuum reference. Vlad: How did you run your fuel systems in your previous NBs? |
Originally Posted by czubaka
(Post 958208)
Leonid, thanks for the info! Are you running a return-less system with that 99 fuel rail?
Joel, treadstone has a fuel pump wiring kit for $30 that I may try to avoid any power issues. People just don't realize that some good hose can change the world... |
Originally Posted by soviet
(Post 958454)
No, I have a return system. If you bolt the 90-97 NA FPR to the 99 fuel rail (bolt-on) it becomes a return fuel rail. I only run the 99 fuel rail because I have a 99 head - there is nothing special about the 99 fuel rail.
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Originally Posted by EO2K
(Post 958462)
There are 2 NB fuel rails, I'm assuming this is the one with the pulsation damper on the FRONT of the rail, right by the throttle body?
didn't know there are 2 different NB fuel rails. |
Originally Posted by EO2K
(Post 958151)
I seem to remember where someone tested a factory NB pump and it had trouble keeping the pressure up @ 7k running N/A with stock injectors.
Fuel Pump - Miata Turbo FAQ Vlad is right, the $80 wally pump is a no brainier. The 190HP should be fine, and IIRC the amprage draw isn't that much of a hit compared to stock. On a side note, in regards to the 90-97 cars.. "Other than that, you don't need one. If you have an aftermarket ECU, the stock pump more than enough to support 300rwhp with the stock regulator" That being said, I agree with the others that OP needs a new pump. All this talk about pumps has got me looking at a walbro255 upgrade for my new 1.8 build as well. |
Originally Posted by soviet
(Post 958470)
yes.
didn't know there are 2 different NB fuel rails.
Originally Posted by Fireindc
(Post 958474)
Interesting.. It looks like the 99 pump is a total POS.
On a side note, in regards to the 90-97 cars.. "Other than that, you don't need one. If you have an aftermarket ECU, the stock pump more than enough to support 300rwhp with the stock regulator" That being said, I agree with the others that OP needs a new pump. All this talk about pumps has got me looking at a walbro255 upgrade for my new 1.8 build as well. |
So if i get you guys, i'm better off with a return system?
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Return is better but its not required at <300whp. If your waiting until next winter before you build your engine then it wouldn't hurt to wait but if you have time to kill just go with it. I'm running a 255 with a returnless system on my 99 and even though i'm only pushing 250whp, I've never had any problems with it. Btw I love the way your build is going and it looks great!
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Originally Posted by cowboys647
(Post 958697)
Return is better but its not required at <300whp. If your waiting until next winter before you build your engine then it wouldn't hurt to wait but if you have time to kill just go with it. I'm running a 255 with a returnless system on my 99 and even though i'm only pushing 250whp, I've never had any problems with it. Btw I love the way your build is going and it looks great!
The time i don't have it, i have to make it :bang: |
Deatschwerks 700cc or RX-8 450cc
i'm affraid the 700cc could be too much for my setup? |
There is no such thing as too much. Get the 700's!
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Even knowing that i'll keep stock 60psi fuel pressure?
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Buy once and get the biggest fucking injectors possible.
Also get a bigass fuel pump. I thoroughly recommend nothing less than two Bosch 044 pumps in tank each feeding their own A1000 pump. Each pump should go to each end of the fuel rail. This should be enough fuel for 300hp. |
i'm affraid that the 700cc will be hard to tune idle/cruise.
because i don't plan more than 10-12psi for this summer even next summer. The walbro 255 is on the list. Because keeping the 60psi stock pressure, the 450cc would be about 525cc, wich would be enough for my setup. the 700cc@60psi would be almost at 800cc wich would be way overkill. i get the buy it once/buy it big, but i don't want to have problem tuning fuel next summer, i already had problem last summer with idle drop, lean and rich spot(voodoo box) |
You should have no issues with a 1000cc injector IF:
Having said that, I'll be running FIC 650cc EV14 injectors on my car, because:
Originally Posted by Reverant
(Post 903380)
If you are looking for budget injectors, the yellow RX-8 injectors are decent, certainly a lot better than the RX-7s! However, I ALWAYS recommend the FIC 650cc EV14s. Yes they are expensive, but they never cease to amaze me, as they completely transform the way the car idles and behaves in general.
Originally Posted by cymx5
(Post 944411)
For the money and stability of EV14's, the cost is easily paid back in the ease of tuning them. I'll say it over and over. They idled my supercharged 1.8l with 9lb flywheel better than stock. That's how stable they are.
Notice: EV14 1150cc, Megasquirt MS2, idling :2cents: There are very few people I will blindly take advice from on this forum. Reverant is one of them as is Savington (Trackspeed Engineering) and Emilio700 (949Racing). Rev builds ECUs and Sav & Emilio race the shit out of these cars pretty much for a living. Do a couple of searches and see what they (and everyone else) recommend and then spend your dollars accordingly. |
Wow! thanks man!
Cause i'm searching for power, but mostly to have a stable, good running car. Budget is one thing, but i'm ready to pay more for the good stuff! By low latency you mean low resistance/low Impedance ? |
lower deadtimes = low latency = faster responding injectors = more precise control. This is what makes the EV14 so desirable.
Speculation: High impedance / low impedance shouldn't matter, provided your ECU can properly drive them. The Miata uses high impedance/resistance (saturated) injectors, so that's what I purchased. |
Originally Posted by EO2K
(Post 962679)
lower deadtimes = low latency = faster responding injectors = more precise control. This is what makes the EV14 so desirable.
Speculation: High impedance / low impedance shouldn't matter, provided your ECU can properly drive them. The Miata uses high impedance/resistance (saturated) injectors, so that's what I purchased. |
I started to gather some parts
All still in Order/shipping. -Reverant MS3 -FIC 650cc Injectors -Walbro 255 -Turbosmart Boost controller -STRI DSD-SLM Fuel pressure gauge I still hesitate for fuel rails, FM kit or M-Tuned. Both cost around the same if i go with braided fuel lines for the M-tuned. I also have to make a pod to fit the FP Gauge, wich i think is going to go under the radio. |
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Why fuel rail?
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