BBro

I also did a thing today

BBro

Here is my current tune. Vlad and I had got the car mostly finished. We tuned Idle, fuel, timing, ebc, etc.

From my understanding we were basically done besides the idle/ac/fan issues I would have and the occasional stall immediately after the first cold start.

Just looking over everything now with a clear mind a few things that conflict with other things I have read are:

Idle valve frequency- Set at 306 but I believe the OEM value is 500 hz. Not sure what difference this makes in the real world or if it is worth changing?

Idle ve table- values are ~10 points leaner than the same area on the normal ve table not sure if this is intentional to smooth the transition when coming to idle?

Idle RPM Timing correction curve- does not seem very aggressive.

Idle Advance- Is turned on and uses values from 16-18* with load. I have heard idling at 10* is better and OEM.

I can start getting logs tomorrow or Saturday to highlight the issues.

turbofan

iTrader: (1)

What was the thing you did? Was there supposed to be an image in that post?

DNMakinson

iTrader: (3)

I think if your idle is generally OK, then leaving the IAC frequency at 306 rather than 511 Hz would be OK, though I have no real knowledge. Seems changing It now would mess up your PID settings and possibly Max / Min.
However, your PID slider is pretty low.
For Initial value, you need to be using MAT, not CLT
Idling at 1000 at 180F CLT is excessive, unless this is trying to accommodate the fan turn-on. Try to get it down to 800RPM (this is the main target curve RPM vs CLT)
Yes, the Idle RPM Timing Correction is quite tame. Mine is 13 @ -300, 12 @ -200, 10 @ -100, 8 @ -50, 0 @ 0, -1 @ 50, -2 @ 100, -3 @ 200
I think you fan delay is much too long. Logs will show. I think that 700mS is long enough for the idle RPM to rise and then PID already start to tame it, then the fan comes on. Logs might give insight. I would first try the Timing Correction change, but I would seriously look at the delay in the range of 100 mS. Play with that. You can force the fan on and off by changing the setting... for lots of data fast. I don't have experience with the battery voltage control of the MSPRO, only the MSBASIC, so those response times could be a factor. It is, after all, the change in electrical load that we are dealing with.

I would not have the A/C fan come on at all for basic cooling purposes. This is likely Inj I Out under Adv Engine / Programmable I/O #1. If you are idling, it is not needed, and if you are under high load, it will likely be at a speed where again, it is not needed. Meanwhile it is not set up with any idle up or delay, so it's coming on would be mean on the idle. If this scares you, set the RPM or Temp higher on that fan. Try it this summer and see if, when not using A/C, you ever need that fan to idle in traffic, or if indeed, the single fan keeps CLT beneath it's turn-on temperature.

I also suggest lowing all of your Idle Advance curve values by at least 3 degrees. Having it rise with MAP is fine, and should help some with the Fan.

Preliminarily, I would increase A/C idle increase to 250 - 300 RPM. This assumes you move base idle to 800. Then, idle with A/C will be 800 + 50 for the main fan (you have it set to come on with A/C) + 250 for A/C = 1100 RPM, which is high enough to give you some cooling. If you leave base RPM at 1000, then you don't need the extra A/C RPM to get you to 1100, but you are wasting gas when not using A/C. Also, my A/C idle up delay is only 425 mS.

My thoughts for now.

For Honesty: I still have one idle issue: When I am coming into an idle and A/C cycles off. Then I get a droop. Not sure why yet. If I have a program error, or the MS gets confused with both actions occurring simultaneously.

EDIT: Hmmm very little Acceleration Enrichment?

DNM

BBro

I became a supporting member, nothing too crazy.

Wow, thanks for all the info its a lot to process I will try to work over it step by step and get logs along the way. I have idle set to 1000 becuase of awr motor mounts mainly. Around 950 is as low as I can idle before vibrations become excessive. 950 idle +50 when fan on +100 with AC sound like a happy medium? That way I still idle at 1100 with ac on.

I always swore it would make more sense to have initial values use MAT but everyone always said to use CLT. I constantly notice when my car would heatsoak that it needed more idle valve.

You are corect I have the main cooling fan setup through the adjustable table and then the ac fan is just an on/off on Injector I. I set the ac fan to come on with a higher temp than the cooling fan so it only comes on if the cooling fan cant keep the car cooled. I have only noticed it kick on when im heatsoked sitting in traffic with the ac going. Is there any better way I should set this up? Really wish ms3 had 2 fully controllable tables for fans.

Heres the plan: try more agressive idle timing rpm correction and lower idle advance across the board, set new idle target of 950, see how that is and get some logs. If ac/fans remain an issue try adjusting the idle up delay/duties then get logs. Also will start finding some values for initial value table using MAT.

Well I have a lot to try, lets see how it goes tommorow.

DNMakinson

iTrader: (3)

Even if you don’t have A/C fan on a temp setting (Inj I) it will come on with compressor. Minor point. Leave it as-is, or raise the temp a little.

Yes to idle RPM changes.

BBro

Ahhhh okay, that makes a lot of sense. I never knew there was some sort of hardware switch for it to come on like that. I'll up the temperature a little to be sure the car really needs some cooling help for it to come on.

Chiburbian

iTrader: (1)

Wish I had met you while I was still in Chicago. I have since moved East of Atlanta. It would have been nice to share notes.

I have a 2001 NB, lotus seats, soon to be squaretop with skunk2... Lots of the same choices.

BBro

Damn, that is too bad! Seems like you have good taste . How do you like Atlanta? Seems like everyone's starting to try and get out of Chicago, I know I am.

Padlock

or you can just hop across to WI and save a lot of money!

BBro

Check my cars plates! My family has a place way north in Wisconsin and we go up there a few times a year, my parents plan to live there in the summers when they retire.

So on the car Idle settings. Summary of changes:

1. Set more aggressive idle timing correction. This was a great change, the car reacted better in all idle situations with only this changed. I especially noticed it when using power steering at a stand still.
2. Decreased Idle advance by 4 degrees across the board. This helped smooth things out.
3. Bumped up Idle ve values to idle at 14.5-14.7 the main areas that needed increase were highload idle (AC)
4. Set idle valve to 511HZ and retested for new min and max values. I just didn't want to keep making changes knowing this was set at 300 and not 500.
5. Decrease idle to 900 rpm, this is a happy medium of low idle without bad vibrations. Fan increases 50, AC increases 150.
6. Changed fan delay to 750 I tried lots of different values and have logs of them but 750 worked the best. Also changed the on temperature to 205. Changed AC fan on temperature to 225 so it only activated when truly needed for cooling.
7. Changed AC delay to 450. This is the best my AC has ever engaged.
8. Lowered initial values table a lot because before it overshot so much now it falls happily to right above idle. Still want to change this to MAT once other things get figured out

Also made some other small changes to engine states, VSS, and overrun. After I figure out idle, Accel Enrich is next.

Here's the tune and some current logs. The Fan and AC need more work still but is way better than is has ever been. I cant really tell whats wrong, maybe a bit more fuel? I see what you mean that CL idle starts to close the valve with such a long fan delay but anything lower made it significantly worse.

DNMakinson

iTrader: (3)

1. Good observation.
2. That is what makes item 1 work. You have to be below MBT so that adding advance gives more torque immediately.
4. Good.
6. I consider a dip from 900 to 860 to be pretty much cured. Not sure how bad the dip was before.
7. Super.
8. MAT is admittedly a fine tune. Don't tweak things down too close, as it is better to settle a bit high, than to miss. Also, set it when running loads, like heater fan on high and lights on. Then when they are off, you will settle a bit high is the worst effect.

Car is still amazingly beautiful.

DNMAKINSON

DNMakinson

iTrader: (3)

Forgit to ask, I think. Do you have a catalytic converter?

BBro

Once I get home I'll post logs of the dip before these adjustments but it was in the hundreds of rpms, really im pretty happy with how the car is after just those adjustments but I'm gonna try to continue to fine tune them and see if I can get it even better. With this exact hardware setup on the OEM ecu you couldn't even tell when the fans turned on. Thanks for the kind words and the help! I'll be getting some good pictures with the new wheels soon.

No catalytic converter. Why do you ask?

DNMakinson

iTrader: (3)

I wonder if OEM allows voltage to dip so that the extra current draw does not shock the engine. Just conjecture. Also, there is a switch for power steering to give some extra power.

I asked because you are using spark cut on the Rev Limiter, which would not be the means of choice if you had a cat.

BBro

Hmm, that could be it. I was very impressed that it could control the spal fans just as well as the factory one's.

Yeah I had a cat that came on the FM exhaust but the actual metal casing of the cat broke so I had it removed and a Stainless pipe put in it's place.

BBro

Here are some pics of the finished product. I like the change a lot and the new mounting is about as clean as it can be. I'm actually almost too low in the car now. For a comparison of how big of a difference removal of the rear seat humps and these custom mounts make look at other cars with Elise seats and a BBFW roll bar and see where the headrest falls in relation to the bars. I haven't seen any this low.

The top of the steering wheel is in my line of sight when looking straight out of the car now. Not sure what to do as I like being this low and far back but the wheel needs to move.

Time to start looking at aftermarket steering wheels I guess...





I think I will hang on to the Tesla seats, they will only become more rare. The Tesla seats are definitely wider and more comfortable but for my uses for the car the lotus seats are a better match and I'm interested to see how they are once I add some padding.

Chiburbian

iTrader: (1)

Have you looked at the mounts for the Elise seats that use sliders? They are pretty pricy, but they are my next driver mod. If not for me, for my 5'4" fiancé so she can drive the car in a pinch.
Lotus Elise seat bracket ? Flipside Customs

Unfortunately for me, I traded my stock seats towards the elise seats so I don't have anything available to cannibalize sliders from.

BBro

I actually have those and use them to bolt the seats to the rails/straps that I made but I remove my cars oem rear mounts so I cant use the oem sliders. I've thought of adding an aftermarket slider to my current setup and could easily add one but its kind of not needed because its only ever me driving the car and aftermarket sliders never seem that nice IMO.

x_25

I removed the rear seat mounts in my NA and just made two small brackets that bolt through the floor to use the stock sliders when the stock seat is in. I droped about 1/2-3/4" from stock doing that, even with the stock seat. Those rear mounts are worth a surprising amount of space.