Gun Rights: Should you be allowed to own an RPG?
Dude, when you're gonna say something that stupid, at least take the time to punctuate.
An RPG is essentially a single-shot weapon. You're limited by the number of rounds you can carry and reload time varies, but 15-20 seconds assuming you're in lab conditions with no additional stressors, nobody shooting back, not in a moving vehicle, etc... to take a follow-on shot. They're not exactly stealthy, so your firing position is immediately known to the enemy. You don't bother to reload, instead just scoot and set up somewhere else. This is assuming your goal is to survive whatever event you're involved in.
On the other hand, even a common 9mm handgun (Glock 17, 17rd standard magazine) is way more "dangerous" than an RPG. The average child can carry a dozen spare mags and with even a little training, get reload to target times down to 3-5 seconds. And don't forget, an RPG-7 (this is the one we're talking about) is an anti-armor weapon. There are anti-personnel rounds available, but the supply is limited and countries that have them don't normally distribute to front-line troops. I suppose if you could buy them at Bass Pro, there'd be a selection of warheads and fusing systems available, but the blast radius is fairly small (it's just a slightly larger grenade) and there are other "better" ways of killing a lot of people. And they're not very accurate in case you haven't played a lot of Call of Duty. True, a 9mm cant penetrate a tank, but unless you're Whistlin Diesel, nobody has one of those.
Essentially, in this ideal world you mention, the moral education handed down by the government would teach that EVERYBODY should have an RPG because they're way safer than normal guns.
Good thing we live in 'MERICA!
An RPG is essentially a single-shot weapon. You're limited by the number of rounds you can carry and reload time varies, but 15-20 seconds assuming you're in lab conditions with no additional stressors, nobody shooting back, not in a moving vehicle, etc... to take a follow-on shot. They're not exactly stealthy, so your firing position is immediately known to the enemy. You don't bother to reload, instead just scoot and set up somewhere else. This is assuming your goal is to survive whatever event you're involved in.
On the other hand, even a common 9mm handgun (Glock 17, 17rd standard magazine) is way more "dangerous" than an RPG. The average child can carry a dozen spare mags and with even a little training, get reload to target times down to 3-5 seconds. And don't forget, an RPG-7 (this is the one we're talking about) is an anti-armor weapon. There are anti-personnel rounds available, but the supply is limited and countries that have them don't normally distribute to front-line troops. I suppose if you could buy them at Bass Pro, there'd be a selection of warheads and fusing systems available, but the blast radius is fairly small (it's just a slightly larger grenade) and there are other "better" ways of killing a lot of people. And they're not very accurate in case you haven't played a lot of Call of Duty. True, a 9mm cant penetrate a tank, but unless you're Whistlin Diesel, nobody has one of those.
Essentially, in this ideal world you mention, the moral education handed down by the government would teach that EVERYBODY should have an RPG because they're way safer than normal guns.
Good thing we live in 'MERICA!
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https://bearingarms.com/camedwards/2...nd-wins-n65822
Deputies from the Marathon County Sheriff’s Office were dispatched at approximately 2:37 am to a residence in the Town of Elderon for a report of a man who was assaulted and stabbed in the face as he exited his vehicle in his garage, the Sheriff’s Office said.
…The (elderly) man was in possession of a firearm and fired one round that struck the (22-year-old) suspect prior to the firearm being wrestled away from him. The suspect suffered a gunshot wound to the chest and died while fleeing the scene. The suspect’s identity is being withheld pending family notification.
The 79-year-old man sustained non-life-threatening injuries and is recovering at a local hospital.
…The (elderly) man was in possession of a firearm and fired one round that struck the (22-year-old) suspect prior to the firearm being wrestled away from him. The suspect suffered a gunshot wound to the chest and died while fleeing the scene. The suspect’s identity is being withheld pending family notification.
The 79-year-old man sustained non-life-threatening injuries and is recovering at a local hospital.
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Elite Member
Joined: Sep 2011
Posts: 1,647
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From: Sierra Vista, AZ
Well, the ATFs "stabilizing brace" final rule has dropped. As expected, it essentially makes any pistol with a 'brace' into an NFA item, reversing years of proclamations by the ATF that they were legal, and even that they could be shouldered.
Considering it flies in the face of at least 3 recent court rulings, is blatantly ex post facto, and yet again overreaches the ATF's authority in a number of ways, it will be interesting to see how this goes down.
Considering it flies in the face of at least 3 recent court rulings, is blatantly ex post facto, and yet again overreaches the ATF's authority in a number of ways, it will be interesting to see how this goes down.
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^I've been watching the thread at THEFIRINGLINE and even those guys don't know what to do. The lawyers that moderate the LAW/LEGAL forum have been trying to hash it out. The ATF has intentionally made this process hard, which is their historic methodology. I just want to know what I need to do to be legal... a few $200 stamps is Starbucks money and I could give a **** less about spending it. Of course, the whole 16" barrel thing is arbitrary and absurd, but whatever. Just spell it out.
I think they combined two threads, so try and follow along.
https://thefiringline.com/forums/sho...d.php?t=616065
I can't even begin to sum up what the average person with a brace should do. The easy button if you want a rifle (ie, fire from the shoulder) with a barrel less than 16" is to subrmit a Form1 for an SBR. Efile waits are a few weeks for the stamp. The "pistol brace" workaround was cool when it was just bro's at home... but manufacturers have sold millions of factory pistols with braces as mainstream off-the-shelf firearms that the ATF didn't get to collect on... and now bro's have to do something about.
This ruling, as opposed to the more recent changes regarding Form1 suppressors (which only affected a small cottage industry), affects almost all major manufacturers... they can't afford to sit this one out.
But when in doubt... follow the money. The ATF wants their $200ea, and in the end, that's all this is about.
I think they combined two threads, so try and follow along.
https://thefiringline.com/forums/sho...d.php?t=616065
I can't even begin to sum up what the average person with a brace should do. The easy button if you want a rifle (ie, fire from the shoulder) with a barrel less than 16" is to subrmit a Form1 for an SBR. Efile waits are a few weeks for the stamp. The "pistol brace" workaround was cool when it was just bro's at home... but manufacturers have sold millions of factory pistols with braces as mainstream off-the-shelf firearms that the ATF didn't get to collect on... and now bro's have to do something about.
This ruling, as opposed to the more recent changes regarding Form1 suppressors (which only affected a small cottage industry), affects almost all major manufacturers... they can't afford to sit this one out.
But when in doubt... follow the money. The ATF wants their $200ea, and in the end, that's all this is about.
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Elite Member
Joined: Sep 2011
Posts: 1,647
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From: Sierra Vista, AZ
One thing that's a problem is that the ATF doesn't have the authority to waive a tax... this morning I've heard some stuff that they're now talking "defer", but haven't seen anything official.
My concern with the 'amnesty' is that they pull the same BS they did with the Form 1 suppressor 'kits' last year and say "these rifles were always SBRs, and you can't form 1 an SBR that should have originally been sold on a Form 4. Now that you've admitted you have it, you have to surrender or destroy it..."
They did exactly that to over a thousand Form 1 applicants who were just trying to be legal, and even fucked over some folks that already had stamps for Form 1 'kits'...
Ultimately, this can't stand scruitiny under several recent Court decisions, so I'm hoping there will be some lawsuits that at least put it on hold until it gets squashed. With literally millions of braces out there, this is a clusterfuck of epic proportions. The ATF has zero ability to process the apps even it it was all legit.
My concern with the 'amnesty' is that they pull the same BS they did with the Form 1 suppressor 'kits' last year and say "these rifles were always SBRs, and you can't form 1 an SBR that should have originally been sold on a Form 4. Now that you've admitted you have it, you have to surrender or destroy it..."
They did exactly that to over a thousand Form 1 applicants who were just trying to be legal, and even fucked over some folks that already had stamps for Form 1 'kits'...
Ultimately, this can't stand scruitiny under several recent Court decisions, so I'm hoping there will be some lawsuits that at least put it on hold until it gets squashed. With literally millions of braces out there, this is a clusterfuck of epic proportions. The ATF has zero ability to process the apps even it it was all legit.
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Senior Member
Joined: Dec 2012
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From: Charlotte, NC
What I would love is for someone to take their new definition of SBR's, and push to eliminate restrictions on all SBR's on the basis of common use since there are tens of millions of braced pistols in circulation.
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Elite Member
Joined: Sep 2011
Posts: 1,647
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From: Sierra Vista, AZ
I agree that it's not about the $200... and that's why I'm so suspicious of the motive here. The ATF cannot possibly process all the applications this will generate. On the low end of the official estimate of the number of braces in circulation (which is probably less than half the actual number), it would be 6 times the typical annual NFA applications, and it already takes them over a year to do those. Do they just hope to jam up the system?
The number of SBRs currently registered is plenty to establish 'common use' under Bruen, as is the number of registered suppressors. Going through with the publication of this rule almost guarantees that the ATF will have to go to court with a case they can't win, and it would likely dismantle the entire NFA as unconstitutional. The fact that they're doing it anyway makes me a little nervous...
The number of SBRs currently registered is plenty to establish 'common use' under Bruen, as is the number of registered suppressors. Going through with the publication of this rule almost guarantees that the ATF will have to go to court with a case they can't win, and it would likely dismantle the entire NFA as unconstitutional. The fact that they're doing it anyway makes me a little nervous...
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this will eventually get overturned at the SC, but it will take a while. But just like the vaccine mandates, they get what they wanted in the meantime.
what gun owners should say is: Register what now? I can barely remember my name, let alone something i owned 120 days ago.
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I misspoke when I said "the ATF wants their money"... as that would lead you to believe that somehow this is "personal" to the ATF. None of this is personal, it's politics.
The video by GunJesus is great, but it only feeds my conclusion that this is about the money. Democrats hate guns and Republicans love money. There will be the rabble rabble rabble from both sides, but if we were taught anything earlier in the year when the ATF squashed the Form1 suppressor game is that nobody in Congress really gives a **** about our fancy hobby any farther than they can use it to raise campaign money by enraging their base. All the money from NFA stamps goes directly in to the Treasury General Fund. The ATF gets none of this money, and will not be given more funding or more agents to process all the applications, nor do they care... nor does Congress care. The ATF is just a political tool of the current ruling party, and don't think for a second that when Republicans control the White House that they do anything positive for us wrt the ATF. This move is a win for everybody on both sides of the aisle if even one bro registers their brace. $Cha-ching$
GunJesus mentions that possibility that there may be 40 million pistol braces out there... Congress wants their $8 billion in taxes and that's all they care about.
The video by GunJesus is great, but it only feeds my conclusion that this is about the money. Democrats hate guns and Republicans love money. There will be the rabble rabble rabble from both sides, but if we were taught anything earlier in the year when the ATF squashed the Form1 suppressor game is that nobody in Congress really gives a **** about our fancy hobby any farther than they can use it to raise campaign money by enraging their base. All the money from NFA stamps goes directly in to the Treasury General Fund. The ATF gets none of this money, and will not be given more funding or more agents to process all the applications, nor do they care... nor does Congress care. The ATF is just a political tool of the current ruling party, and don't think for a second that when Republicans control the White House that they do anything positive for us wrt the ATF. This move is a win for everybody on both sides of the aisle if even one bro registers their brace. $Cha-ching$
GunJesus mentions that possibility that there may be 40 million pistol braces out there... Congress wants their $8 billion in taxes and that's all they care about.
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Senior Member
Joined: Apr 2011
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From: Hollywood, FL
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