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Old 08-08-2012, 01:40 PM   #81
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So, Samnavy's argument in favor of the death penalty is a pipe dream because we don't have it? The...140-some people in Texas who were innocent and executed didn't really get executed?
in Texas, in 2011, there were 10 executions with 321 inmmates on death row.

.03% which is a bit higher than the national average of executions:death row immates.

Those stats aren't much better than the regular death rate in jails (0.002%).
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Old 08-08-2012, 01:47 PM   #82
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in Texas, in 2011, there were 10 executions with 321 inmmates on death row.

.03% which is a bit higher than the national average of executions:death row immates.

Those stats aren't much better than the regular death rate in jails (0.002%).
So, you have gone from...executions don't happen, to executions don't happen fast enough?

And yet, this is directly contradicting what Samnavy is saying, Brainy, and has little relevance to what I was saying. According to him, the current death penalty laws *are* a deterrent, and my argument is tied to Sam's posts...which means you are arguing with Samnavy's posts, which means my posts are superfluous on this particular tangent untill Samnavy answers your posts (Specifically, how the death penalty can be a deterrent if it almost never happens. My argument is it isn't a deterrent, and your posts seem to be on the same side, although a different logic - it's not a deterrent because it rarely happens.)
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Old 08-08-2012, 01:59 PM   #83
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This is actually a really good argument that I haven't thought about before wrt gun control...

I don't know if Roe v. Wade has any goddamn thing to do with it, but I'd totally be on board with the drug war causing all sorts of havoc. Really, if you exclude the Roe v. Wade stuff in your post, I'm completely on board with what you are saying.



-Zach
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Old 08-08-2012, 02:13 PM   #84
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Big Graphs

-Zach
Perhaps you could include a bit of text to explain what you are trying to say, as there are four variables given?

Are you trying to say that gun control increases the amount of drug arrests? Are you trying to say that drug arrests increases the amount of gun control? Are you trying to say that if juvenile drug arrests remain largely static, and adult drug arrests increase, gun control is implemented?

What I think you are trying to say is that crime increased with more drug arrests - but you've failed to connect them. In fact, you've posted two graphs with no proof of causation whatsoever, and of which both have information that I agree with (i.e. gun control correlates with more crime [Note: Not causes, correlates], not less, and drug laws have resulted in more crime for obvious reasons), but are ultimately trying to prove causation through correlation - and although those show data I would really like to be proven, I have to take the side of correlation is not causation.

(Extreme hyperbole warning) I mean, obviously, selling MT.net to IB caused all the shootings lately. Just because there is correlation does not make it causation bro.
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Old 08-08-2012, 02:14 PM   #85
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My argument is it isn't a deterrent, and your posts seem to be on the same side, although a different logic - it's not a deterrent because it rarely happens.)
yes, correct.

But that will be the day, we can barely get states to pass things like the Jessica's law, since liberal judges like their "kin" to get away scot-free.
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Old 08-08-2012, 02:18 PM   #86
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yes, correct.
Wait, we're (kind of) on the same side of an issue? What's the catch here Brainy?

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But that will be the day, we can barely get states to pass things like the Jessica's law, since conservative judges like their "kin" to get away scot-free.
ftfy

Seriously Brainy, corruption with respect to judges and "kin" is rampant in certain parts of the country, regardless of the judges ideological persuasion.
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Old 08-08-2012, 02:23 PM   #87
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We are on the same side of many issues. I pretty much hate and disapprove of everything, eventually, there will be mutuals in there
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Old 08-08-2012, 02:27 PM   #88
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Sam - How many of the theater attendees were active or retired military?
I'm sure the numbers will come out at a later date, but I don't know. There is a medium sized Air Force Base in Aurora itself, so it would stand that there were at least some active duty. However, mechanics and yeoman aren't exactly trained warriors. What is almost certain is that nobody but the gunman was armed. Anybody who might have been carrying (illegally) has so far kept quiet about it.

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I largely agree with this line of thinking (especially that prohibition does not equal eradication) but I sometimes wonder. Where do criminals obtain their firearms? How many of those illegally obtained firearms were obtained by "straw purchases" or stolen from an otherwise legal buyer or owner? If you eliminate the latter, do you significantly impact the former?
You've gotta go further back than the individual who commits the crime.

A firearm enters circulation one of two ways. Either in the initial purchase from a retailer, or by being stolen from a retailer. Trucks carrying guns are rarely hi-jacked as they leave the factory... so you've gotta assume that about 99.99% of firearms make it some sort of "retailer" and leave from there.

From the retailer, the gun is either legally or illegally sold.

Illegal sales, either thru straw purchases, people lying on their 4473, or corrupt/in-cahoots FFL's are a significant source of firearms used in crime... however, it's a Felony to purchase them in this manner in the first place. There have been tried and failed solutions to stop this... ie, waiting periods, one-gun-a-month-rules, permitting processes, etc... They don't work.

Once the gun is in circulation illegally, it is unlikely that it will find it's way to the hands of a "legal" owner... ie, an illegal owner sells it in an FTF state (a state where one person can legally sell a firearm to another without going through an FFL... commonly called the "Gunshow Loophole' that has nothing to do with Gunshows) to a person legally able to own it. Once the firearm is in the hands of a legally-able-to-own person, it's largely not an issue anymore.

If the gun is initially illegally acquired, it really doesn't matter how the final criminal (the one who uses it in a crime) actually gets it. If it's given to him by a friend, black market, drug-deal, whatever... the gun was initially purchased illegally and will continue to swap hands illegally until it's recovered by police after a crime.

Now on to the fun part... the legally acquired guns. After a gun is initially purchased legally from a retailer, there are a couple ways to make it into the hands of a criminal... either through theft, or by the owner giving/selling it to a person who they do not know is unable to possess one.

The great state of Louisiana is an FTF state. I've sold several guns to people who contact me through classified ads in forums and meet me down at the local Lowes. I bring a gun, they bring cash, shake hands, later. I check them out as best I can... no obvious prison tats or other dead give-aways... most people with a couple hundred post-count who are known quantities on a forum and local satisfies me that I'm not selling to a felon (ChuckyZ notwithstanding). It is not illegal for me to sell to a felon as long as I don't know or suspect, and I do my best. But it is illegal for him to buy it.

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Originally Posted by Scrappy Jack View Post
I don't know. I don't know enough about the statistics on gun violence in countries that have significant civillian restrictions.
There is very little gun-violence in countries where civilians are not allowed to own guns... VERY LITTLE.

However, the rates of VIOLENT CRIME far surpasses the United States. I hope the British can sleep well at night enjoying their moral superiority about not having any guns as their criminal element stabs, beats, poisons, burns, rapes, and bludgeons themsleves at 4x the rate we do it here.

But that brings us right to the root cause... people commit crimes for money. Make no mistake... Britain is one fukked up place when it comes to social issues. Hooligans, louts, brutes, roughies... etc... the masses of unemployed or barely employed who steal and rob for a living. The country is run by socialists and are buried under a system of general welfare that exists for generation upon generation where you have entire families for decades who never work, continue to procreate, and commit crime to supplement what the gov't gives them... sound familiar?
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Old 08-08-2012, 02:32 PM   #89
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Colorado Law
"PURCHASE
There is no state permit required for the purchase of any rifle, shotgun or handgun.
Dealers are required to keep a record on the retail sale, rental, or exchange of handguns. The record shall include the name of the person to whom the handgun is transferred, his or her age, occupation, and residence, and the make, caliber, finish and serial number of the handgun, and the date of the transfer and name of employee making the transfer. The record book shall be open at all times to the inspection of any duly authorized police officer."

Am I off-base to think that this is awfully lax? Seriously, I don't know. I have no knowledge of the firearm lifestyle/hobby/etc. I know that there are many firearm enthusiasts here. Do you think that this is reasonable?
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Old 08-08-2012, 02:37 PM   #90
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Originally Posted by blaen99 View Post
Perhaps you could include a bit of text to explain what you are trying to say, as there are four variables given?

Are you trying to say that gun control increases the amount of drug arrests? Are you trying to say that drug arrests increases the amount of gun control? Are you trying to say that if juvenile drug arrests remain largely static, and adult drug arrests increase, gun control is implemented?

What I think you are trying to say is that crime increased with more drug arrests - but you've failed to connect them. In fact, you've posted two graphs with no proof of causation whatsoever, and of which both have information that I agree with (i.e. gun control correlates with more crime [Note: Not causes, correlates], not less, and drug laws have resulted in more crime for obvious reasons), but are ultimately trying to prove causation through correlation - and although those show data I would really like to be proven, I have to take the side of correlation is not causation.

(Extreme hyperbole warning) I mean, obviously, selling MT.net to IB caused all the shootings lately. Just because there is correlation does not make it causation bro.
It's all correlation ... I'm lazily suggesting that the the crack-cocaine (or drugs in general) boom of the 80/90's and proceeding law enforcement crackdown had more of an impact on violent crime than the increase in gun ownership did. I'm not wasting my lunch hour to craft of lengthy summation with supporting evidence.

I'm willing to bet gun ownership is such a small factor in U.S. violent crime reduction and drug/gang involvement trends correlate much closer.

-Zach
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Old 08-08-2012, 02:39 PM   #91
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Originally Posted by thasac View Post
It's all correlation ... I'm lazily suggesting that the the crack-cocaine (or drugs in general) boom of the 80/90's and proceeding law enforcement crackdown had more of an impact on violent crime than the increase in gun ownership did. I'm not wasting my lunch hour to craft of lengthy summation with supporting evidence.

I'm willing to bet gun ownership is such a small factor in U.S. violent crime reduction and drug/gang involvement trends correlate much closer.

-Zach
I'd be on board with that - but for a different reason.

The imprisonment rates of gun crime vs. drug crime...yeah. Let's just say it's a vast overwhelming majority drug crime win.
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Old 08-08-2012, 03:01 PM   #92
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Rules of a gun fight

1. Forget about knives, bats and fists. Bring a gun. Preferably, bring at least two guns. Bring all of your friends who have guns. Bring four times the ammunition you think you could ever need.
2. Anything worth shooting is worth shooting twice. Ammunition is cheap - life is expensive. If you shoot inside, buckshot is your friend. A new wall is cheap - funerals are expensive
3. Only hits count. The only thing worse than a miss is a slow miss.
4. If your shooting stance is good, you're probably not moving fast enough or using cover correctly.
5. Move away from your attacker and go to cover. Distance is your friend. (Bulletproof cover and diagonal or lateral movement are preferred.)
6. If you can choose what to bring to a gunfight, bring a semi or full-automatic long gun and a friend with a long gun.
7. In ten years nobody will remember the details of caliber, stance, or tactics. They will only remember who lived.
8. If you are not shooting, you should be communicating, reloading, and running. Yell "Fire!" Why "Fire"? Cops will come with the Fire
Department, sirens often scare off the bad guys, or at least cause then to lose concentration and will... and who is going to summon help if you yell "Intruder," "Glock" or "Winchester?"
9. Accuracy is relative: most combat shooting standards will be more dependent on "pucker factor" than the inherent accuracy of the gun.
10. Someday someone may kill you with your own gun, but they should have to beat you to death with it because it is empty.
11. Always cheat, always win. The only unfair fight is the one you lose.
12. Have a plan.
13. Have a back-up plan, because the first one won't work. "No battle plan ever survives 10 seconds past first contact with an enemy."
14. Use cover or concealment as much as possible, but remember, sheetrock walls and the like stop nothing but your pulse when bullets tear through them.
15. Flank your adversary when possible. Protect yours.
16. Don't drop your guard.
17. Always tactical load and threat scan 360 degrees. Practice reloading one- handed and off-hand shooting. That's how you live if hit in your "good" side.
18. Watch their hands. Hands kill. Smiles, frowns and other facial expressions don't. (In God we trust. Everyone else keep your hands where I can see them.)
19. Decide NOW to always be aggressive ENOUGH, quickly ENOUGH. 20. The faster you finish the fight, the less shot you will get.
21. Be polite. Be professional. Have a plan to kill everyone you meet if necessary, because they may want to kill you.
22. Be courteous to everyone, overly friendly to no one.
23. Your number one option for personal security is a lifelong commitment to avoidance, deterrence, and de-escalation.
24. Do not attend a gunfight with a handgun, the caliber of which does not start with anything smaller than "4".
25. Use a gun that works EVERY TIME. "All skill is in vain when an Angel blows the powder from the flintlock of your musket." At a practice session, throw your gun into the mud, then make sure it still works. You can clean it later.
26. Practice shooting in the dark, with someone shouting at you, when out of breath, etc.
27. Regardless of whether justified of not, you will feel sad about killing another human being. It is better to be sad than to be room temperature.
28. The only thing you EVER say afterward is, "He said he was going to kill me. I believed him. I'm sorry, Officer, but I'm very upset now. I can't say anything more. Please speak with my attorney."
29. Never be unarmed.
30. If you have your hands, your feet, your mind and your Spirit as a Soldier, Sailor, Airman, Marine, Coastie, Police Officer or Personal Protection Specialist, you are never unarmed.
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Old 08-08-2012, 03:09 PM   #93
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Holy crap after all this time i just realized I've been reading this thread as Gay rights - blah blah blah RPG.
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Old 08-08-2012, 03:13 PM   #94
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Originally Posted by budget racer View Post
Am I off-base to think that this is awfully lax? Seriously, I don't know. I have no knowledge of the firearm lifestyle/hobby/etc. I know that there are many firearm enthusiasts here. Do you think that this is reasonable?
Very few states require a permit or license to purchase a firearm, as far as I know. Unlike the TV shows where they inquire if a suspect "had a permit for that gun," you generally only need a permit to carry a concealed firearm on your person - not to own or posess (i.e. to keep in your home).

All states, as far as I understand, require you to pass a Federal background check when purchasing from a dealer.

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Originally Posted by samnavy View Post
A firearm enters circulation one of two ways. Either in the initial purchase from a retailer, or by being stolen from a retailer.
So, notwithstanding the millions of firearms already in circulation, if laws were passed that made it much more restrictive to purchase them legally, it would seem to follow from your logic that would reduce the number that eventually make it in to circulation illegally?

Quote:
There is very little gun-violence in countries where civilians are not allowed to own guns... VERY LITTLE.

However, the rates of VIOLENT CRIME far surpasses the United States. I hope the British can sleep well at night enjoying their moral superiority about not having any guns as their criminal element stabs, beats, poisons, burns, rapes, and bludgeons themsleves at 4x the rate we do it here.
Given the option between facing a criminal with a knife and facing one with a firearm, I might be inclined to opt for the moral superiority route. If faced with a mugger with a vial of poison, I am definitely going that route!
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Old 08-08-2012, 03:18 PM   #95
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Holy crap after all this time i just realized I've been reading this thread as Gay rights - blah blah blah RPG.
Should gays be permitted to own guns with all thier homosexual lust and child AIDS-rape?
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Old 08-08-2012, 03:24 PM   #96
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Should gays be permitted to own guns with all thier homosexual lust and child AIDS-rape?
<Pedantry>
Oddly, homosexuals are extraordinarily unlikely to be pedophiles. The incidence of homosexual pedophilia is something like two orders of magnitude less than the normal population.
</Pedantry>
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Old 08-08-2012, 03:24 PM   #97
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Originally Posted by Scrappy Jack View Post
Given the option between facing a criminal with a knife and facing one with a firearm, I might be inclined to opt for the moral superiority route. If faced with a mugger with a vial of poison, I am definitely going that route!
Given the possible scenarios:

1. I have a firearm, and my attacker may have a firearm.
2. I have a knife, and my attacker may have a knife.

I'm still choosing number 1. Nobody wins a knife fight.
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Old 08-08-2012, 04:25 PM   #98
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Originally Posted by budget racer View Post
Colorado Law
"PURCHASE
There is no state permit required for the purchase of any rifle, shotgun or handgun.
Dealers are required to keep a record on the retail sale, rental, or exchange of handguns. The record shall include the name of the person to whom the handgun is transferred, his or her age, occupation, and residence, and the make, caliber, finish and serial number of the handgun, and the date of the transfer and name of employee making the transfer. The record book shall be open at all times to the inspection of any duly authorized police officer."

Am I off-base to think that this is awfully lax? Seriously, I don't know. I have no knowledge of the firearm lifestyle/hobby/etc. I know that there are many firearm enthusiasts here. Do you think that this is reasonable?
What you are asking about is called a "firearms registry"... that a state or national government should know where every gun in legal circulation is at all times. In order to legally purchase a firearm from a licenenced FFL, you must complete a form 4473. Look it up. It basically says you're not a criminal. Then the FFL will call the NICS system, give them your particulars and have a background check performed. If you pass, you walk out with your gun unless you live in a state with waiting periods. How much harder should it be?

The recordkeeping that the store has to maintain is all part of the FFL process and is not merely a local law.

If you want to make that data part of a gigantic database that is controlled by the government, then they know exactly who's door to knock on when they come to take your guns. This is exactly what happened in England. If you didn't turn in your guns voluntarily, the police came to your house and seized them because they knew exactly where they were.

There are some state-specific programs that require people to have a license to purchase guns. The Illinois FOID program requires that in order to purchase a gun in IL, you have to have a FOID card... basically a license. Although this is technically not a "registration" program, the gov't still knows who can and can't legally buy guns in the state, so they know exactly where to go when they start confiscating them.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FOID_(firearms)

The state of New York is moving towards being a complete registry state and is 90% there:
Overview of handgun licensing

The purchase of a handgun in New York State is limited to only those individuals who hold a valid Pistol License issued by a county or major city within New York State and present to the seller a purchase document, issued by the licensing authority, with the specific make, model, caliber and serial number of the handgun indicated on the document. The possession of a handgun in New York State is limited only to those individuals who hold a valid Pistol License and are in possession of a registered handgun (one that appears on the license, indicating the specific make, model, caliber and serial number of the handgun). The carry of a handgun in New York State is limited only to those individuals who hold a valid Pistol License, possess a registered handgun, and are carrying said handgun in compliance with the restrictions as they appear on the license and other applicable state and federal law.[6][7][10]
New York State pistol licenses are not issued to out-of-state or part-time residents.[10] New York does not honor licenses or permits from any other states, though some states will recognize New York licenses without a formal agreement.[11] There are no provisions for an out-of-state handgun owner (other than on- or off-duty law enforcement, on-duty military or non-resident business owners with a NYS Pistol License) to carry a handgun within New York State. A pistol license is required to physically examine a handgun for purchase at a gun store or gun show.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Scrappy Jack View Post
So, notwithstanding the millions of firearms already in circulation, if laws were passed that made it much more restrictive to purchase them legally, it would seem to follow from your logic that would reduce the number that eventually make it in to circulation illegally?
That would make sense... but what part of "shall not be infringed" do people not get. You either agree with the Constitution or you don't. There's a reason the writers of the Constitution didn't bury "RKBA" down in the fine print... it's #2, right behind the one we told England to *** off over.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Scrappy Jack View Post
Given the option between facing a criminal with a knife and facing one with a firearm, I might be inclined to opt for the moral superiority route. If faced with a mugger with a vial of poison, I am definitely going that route!
You might as well bend the knee and suck a dick. You're basically saying that your personal freedoms, your liberties, and your basic right to exist as a free man are less important than finding a way to accommodate the actions of the lawless. Your comment is disgusting.

In America, we don't set the bar for liberty based on the acts of a few miscreants. Wanting to have a fair fight against criminals is the mark of a moral coward... a person who doesn't want an advantage simply to satisfy his ego. You're trying to put the criminal and the free man on equal footing by telling the free man what he must and must not do because your telling of the criminal has not worked. Your line of reasoning is just plain sickening.
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Old 08-08-2012, 05:01 PM   #99
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Poverty causes crime like flies cause dog poo.
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Old 08-08-2012, 05:14 PM   #100
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Originally Posted by sixshooter View Post
Poverty causes crime like flies cause dog poo.
So, you are alleging that crime causes poverty?

This is definitely an interesting argument, and one I've never heard of before. Could you elaborate and provide sources backing it, because it sounds like a giant crock of crap to me.
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