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Old 12-19-2012, 09:24 PM   #161
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Originally Posted by Scrappy Jack View Post
Why? Are full-auto firearms available at the same cost and purchasing eligibility as a semi-auto? I can pick up a full-auto or select-fire Uzi, M-16, HK G3 or the like for a price comparable to a Spike's Tactical AR just by passing a Federal background check and waiting a few days or flashing my CWL? "

There is a browning .50 cal "shorty" for 9k and a full auto belt fed modified AR for 3.2k plus the 200 tax stamp.

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Old 12-19-2012, 09:26 PM   #162
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dont forget about the tommy in the guitar case.


or barrett .50s

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Old 12-20-2012, 06:59 AM   #163
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Pen - You did not answer my question, except to point out that they are significantly more expensive than their semi-auto "equivalents."
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Old 12-20-2012, 09:28 AM   #164
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Originally Posted by shuiend View Post
Here is a quick read about the statistics with sources on the breakdown of gun violence in the US.
Can you post the title of the document so I can see if I can find it somewhere other than a peer-to-peer file sharing service (which is blocked from my current location)?


I was looking at FBI stats the other morning and was frankly shocked at how few homicides there are in a given year relative to the amount of people in this country (~13k homicides, ~312m people). I also noted that all homicides, including gun-related homicides, have been dropping since 2007.

I would tend to think, anecdotally, that there are more firearms in circulation today than pre-Obama but who knows.

Link to FBI stats

It may also be worth pointing out that firearms are still an order of magnitude more common in homicides than any other weapon, including hands/feet, knives, bludgeoning tools, etc.
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Old 12-20-2012, 09:51 AM   #165
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Originally Posted by MatosMiata View Post
So 49 human lives mean absolutely nothing to you? Therein lies the problem with all these psychopaths massacring innocent people. Americans no longer value human life. I would love a world with no guns, but even then these massacres would happen. The Oklahoma bomber didn't need a gun now did he? Bombs, gasoline, alcohol, poison, swords, machetes, chemicals, gases, there are tons of ways for crazy fools to commit massacres. We need work against the apathy and ignorance that has been bred into our culture as opposed to trying to turn this into another excuse for Democrat vs Republican viewpoint debates.
What? No the opposite. Did you notice I pointed out that the same year there were 97 murders in the UK there were 200 in the city I live in? I value human life so much that I would rather NOT waste it.
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Old 12-20-2012, 10:02 AM   #166
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Old 12-20-2012, 10:08 AM   #167
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Scrappy Jack View Post
Can you post the title of the document so I can see if I can find it somewhere other than a peer-to-peer file sharing service (which is blocked from my current location)?


I was looking at FBI stats the other morning and was frankly shocked at how few homicides there are in a given year relative to the amount of people in this country (~13k homicides, ~312m people). I also noted that all homicides, including gun-related homicides, have been dropping since 2007.

I would tend to think, anecdotally, that there are more firearms in circulation today than pre-Obama but who knows.

Link to FBI stats

It may also be worth pointing out that firearms are still an order of magnitude more common in homicides than any other weapon, including hands/feet, knives, bludgeoning tools, etc.
I will just quote it all here.

Quote:
Gun Crimes In the United States - Just the Facts

James M. Woodward - Dec. 2012


In 2011, Homicide was only 16th in leading causes of death in the US, Suicide is the 10th in the nation (http://goo.gl/vQqEj). You are far more likely to lose someone if they pick up a cigarette (438/day, Lung Cancer Fact Sheet - American Lung Association or (135/day, CDC - Fact Sheet - Secondhand Smoke Facts - Smoking & Tobacco Use) for those who inhale secondhand smoke, or even if they step into a car (95/day, http://goo.gl/8RgVI).


Itís times like these that I feel itís important to remind people of the facts about gun related crimes. The media likes to take an aggressive stance against certain types of weapons because itís a sensationalist topic that will sell. However, there is much that is not presented which leaves their representation of statistics with a great bias.


2009:

Number of firearm homicides: 11,493 (3.7 incidents per 100,000 - http://goo.gl/vQqEj) - CDC/DoVS

Number of firearm murders: 9,146 (2.98 incidents per 100,000 - http://goo.gl/AE0dq) - FBI

Number of suicide firearm deaths: 18,735 (6.1 incidents per 100,000 - http://goo.gl/vQqEj - 2.04x times the number of murders)


2010:

Number of firearm homicides: 11,015 (3.6 incidents per 100,000 - http://goo.gl/bu0bt) - CDC/DoVS

Number of firearm murders: 8,775 (2.84 incidents per 100,000 - http://goo.gl/AE0dq) - FBI

Number of suicide firearm deaths: 19,308 (6.3 incidents per 100,000 - http://goo.gl/bu0bt - 2.20x times the number of murders)


2011:

Number of firearm homicides: 11,101 (3.6 / 100,000 - http://goo.gl/8RgVI) - CDC/DoVS

Number of firearm murders: 8,583 (2.75 / 100,000 - http://goo.gl/AE0dq) - FBI

Number of suicide firearm deaths: 19,766 (6.3/100,000 - http://goo.gl/8RgVI - 2.30x times the number of murders)

The difference between the homicides and murders implies a higher accidental death rate. Murders still declined.


Homicides and suicide firearm deaths are two statistics that are often reported together to increase the shock value of the firearm death rate. Firearm murders are on a decline (as reported by the FBI, Bureau of Justice, etc.) yet suicides are on the rise. Itís a distinction that should be made as they just donít qualify as the same coverage (define:homicide - Google Search) and reporting them as such is a misrepresentation of the overall statistics.


The statistics (in brief demonstrated here) shows there is a larger problem with suicide rate in the country. However, I feel the confines of this paper are not suitable for the mental health discussion as it could be had by itself. Lastly, If someone needs help (1-800-273-8255) they should have a way to get it, but that doesnít mean that everyone will seek assistance.


Contrary to popular belief, the most common weapon used is not an assault rifle. In fact, the 2011 FBI murder report (http://goo.gl/LcT8v) details 12,664 murders, 6,220 (49%) of them were committed with handguns, knives totalled up to 1,694 (13.3%) and fists accounted for yet another 3.9%. Rifles came in in absolute last with 323 murders (2.5%), excluding unknown weapons. This is further backed up by California's 2009 report which explicitly lists the bullets used by frequency (http://goo.gl/RYG0e). The most common were the 9mm handgun round at more than double the use of the 2nd place round, the .22 rifle (or occasionally handgun) round. Traditional assault rifle rounds (7.62mm & .223Ē) were in last place for usage. On the same Justice Bureau website (Firearms and Crime Statistics) we read; ďDuring the offense that brought them to prison, 15% of State inmates and 13% of Federal inmates carried a handgun, and about 2%, a military-style semiautomatic gun." These statistics align with the FBI's 2.5% rifle usage rate in itís 2011 "About Gun Crime in the U.S" report, mentioned above (http://goo.gl/XpFiF).


Quoting the Justice Bureau's webpage once again, (Firearms and Crime Statistics "Firearm-related crime has plummeted since 1993" and a 1997 prison survey highlights the fact that illegal firearm sources most often come from ďfamily, friends, a street buy, or an illegal sourceĒ 80% of the time, contrary to common media misrepresentation that Gun Shows contribute many firearms, which were only listed as 2% of the response.


Another statistic rarely mentioned is the ratio at which gun crime occurs to gun ownership. In the United States, there are estimated to be 270 Million firearms, both licit and illicit, in the hands of private citizens (Guns in the United States: Facts, Figures and Firearm Law). Compared to the number of weapons used in a murder (See: FBI Report 2011) that occurred last year is 0.003178%. Thatís 3.17 per 100,000. Previous years (citing the same page), show that this is a continued decrease from each prior year:

2006:5.70, 2007:5.61, 2008:5.35, 2009:4.96, 2010:4.6

Verifying this information, the FBI Murder statistics show a steady decline every year starting at 10,150 in 2005 (beginning of the report) and ending at 8,583 reports in 2011: http://goo.gl/P5D5q


All these statistics demonstrate that attention grabbing issues are nothing more than distractions from the real problem; Handgun and gang violence that the press has long since moved past. In this FBI spreadsheet on gang activity it is apparent that handgun usage is on the rise, and hasnít seen a drop in gang related homicide activity, (raw numbers: Bureau of Justice Statistics Homicide Trends in the United States: Trends in Homicides by Circumstance Type and Weapon table, chart: Bureau of Justice Statistics Homicide trends in the U.S.: Homicide circumstances). We mostly see high publicity events that grab media attention, while the majority of gun violence is statistically carried out with illegally obtained handguns not assault weapons, (and not in schools) however those more common issues don't garner press attention. A fine example, is that the death toll from all mass shootings (30 over 13 years) since Columbine (273, A Timeline Of Mass Shootings In The US Since Columbine | ThinkProgress) are surpassed by drive-by shooting deaths in Los Angeles, in a single year (275, List of circumstances - Homicide Report - Los Angeles Times).


I do not seek to trivialize the horrific nature of the mass shootings that have occurred in our society but to suggest alternate means of handling their occurrence. As a society, we (and particularly the press) often have knee jerk reactions to extremist situations when there are much, much larger problems occurring, (daily even) that aren't pushed at us with such tenacity. As such I'll side with Roger Ebert and his recent article. If we stop placing the killers in the limelight, perhaps they won't be frequent. We shouldn't remember and glorify the names of those that stormed Columbine yet forget the victims; The Newtown killings - Roger Ebert's Journal
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Old 12-20-2012, 10:13 AM   #168
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We all knew this was going to happen.
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Old 12-20-2012, 11:14 AM   #169
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shuiend View Post
I will just quote it all here.
Thanks; that was great. I especially like the follow-up to the firearms not identified in the FBI report. I had already seen someone use the "rifles" only numbers to suggest baseball bats and hands were more likely to be used in a murder than an AR, but felt that was misleading as it ignored that stat.
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Old 12-20-2012, 12:14 PM   #170
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Wow. More people use their bare hands to murder than rifles. I did not know that.
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Old 12-20-2012, 01:10 PM   #171
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Wow. More people use their bare hands to murder than rifles. I did not know that.
This is what I was referencing in my post above. Because there were 1,587 (2011) homocides where the firearm type was not identified, you cannot say for sure that "More people use their bare hands to murder than rifles." That's probably true, but if even half of those "type not stated" were rifles, that would make your statement false.

Just saying.
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Old 12-20-2012, 01:12 PM   #172
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This is kind of a ridiculous question, and not really pertinent to the actual issue, but I can't but be curious how it's classified if the victim was bludgeoned to death with a firearm.
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Old 12-20-2012, 01:18 PM   #173
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I'd be willing to bet it's classified not under blunt trauma, but under firearms. Exactly the same way that car related deaths are classified. If the driver in either vehicle has had anything to drink, regardless if they are under the limit or not, it is classified as "alcohol related" (at least in NY).

I learned this from my counselor (former parole officer) when I had to take alcohol abuse therapy classes after my DUI.
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Old 12-20-2012, 02:27 PM   #174
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I knew the LA riots were not pretty, but I didn't know it unfolded like this. Basically, the police abandoned the Asian neighborhoods and for some reason that was the hot-spot for rioting and looting. So, the Koreans defended themselves and their families.

When the Trayvon Martin / George Zimmerman trial verdict comes in, I hopefully won't need a black rifle.

1992 Los Angeles riots - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Quote:
Riots and Korean-Americans

Korea-Americans in Los Angeles refer to the event as "Sa-E-Gu", meaning "four-two-nine" in the Korean language, in reference to the April 29, 1992, which was the day the riots started. The riots prompted various responses from Korean-Americans, including the formation of activist organizations such as the Association of Korean-American Victims, and increased efforts to build collaborative links with other ethnic groups.[42]
During the riots, many Korean immigrants from the area rushed to Koreatown, after Korean-language radio stations called for volunteers to guard against rioters. Many were armed, with a variety of improvised weapons, shotguns, and semi-automatic rifles.[43]
According to Professor Edward Park, director of the Asian Pacific American Studies Program[44] at Loyola Marymount University,[45] the 1992 violence stimulated a new wave of political activism among Korean-Americans, but it also split them into two camps. The liberals sought to unite with other minorities in Los Angeles to fight against racial oppression and scapegoating. The conservatives emphasized law and order and generally favored the economic and social policies of the Republican Party. The conservatives tended to emphasize the political differences between Koreans and other minorities, specifically blacks and Hispanics.[46][47]
One of the most iconic and controversial television images of the violence was a scene of two Korean merchants firing pistols repeatedly at roving looters. The New York Times said "that the image seemed to speak of race war, and of vigilantes taking the law into their own hands."[48] The merchants, jewelry store and gun shop owner Richard Park and his gun store manager, David Joo, were reacting to the shooting of Mr. Park's wife and her sister by looters who converged on the shopping center where the shops were located.[48]
Due to their low social status and language barrier, Korean Americans received very little if any aid or protection from police authorities. [49] David Joo, a manager of the gun store, said, "I want to make it clear that we didn't open fire first. At that time, four police cars were there. Somebody started to shoot at us. The LAPD ran away in half a second. I never saw such a fast escape. I was pretty disappointed." Carl Rhyu, a participant in the Korean immigrants' armed response to the rioting, said, "If it was your own business and your own property, would you be willing to trust it to someone else? We are glad the National Guard is here. They're good backup. But when our shops were burning we called the police every five minutes; no response.[48] At a shopping center several miles north of Koreatown, Jay Rhee, who estimated that he and others fired five hundred shots into the ground and air, said, "We have lost our faith in the police. Where were you when we needed you?" Korean Americans were ignored. Koreatown was isolated from South Central Los Angeles, yet despite such exclusion it was the heaviest hit. [49]
The cultural differences and success of Korean Americans raised intense resentment towards their culture as they were the primary targets during the riots. Koreans were considered the “model minority” as they possessed great business success in Koreatown as small grocery and liquor stores. Blacks targeted Korean Americans, for they felt economic inequality in a nation that is considered their own. Tension had been simmering between African Americans and Koreans in Los Angeles for decades. Such conflict included the lack of the perceived exploitation and racism of the black community by Koreans, the Korean’s failure to hire blacks, the robbing and shootings of Koreans by black, and in turn the assault or death of blacks by Koreans. Korean Americans were perceived as rude, linguistically limited foreigners who exploited the black community. They were often depicted as racists, as in Ice Cube’s rap song ‘Black Korea’ displays: “Look you little Chinese ************/I ain’t trying to steal none of yo’ ****, leave me alone!...So pay respect to the black fist/ or we’ll burn your store, right down to a crisp!” Blacks used Korean Americans as an outlet to their anger and suppression within society; based on such cultural perceptions, blacks felt justified in the terrorizing of Koreatown. Korean Americans were strangers to their new land, as the cultural differences, such as language, customs, success, and physical appearances, were significantly different than the majority. These differences were used as fuel to the looting and arson during the six day riot period.
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Old 12-20-2012, 02:32 PM   #175
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The black fist just wanted to wet his beak.
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Old 12-21-2012, 09:48 AM   #176
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Texas says ban ping-pong not guns

Texas lawmaker:

Incoming Texas State Rep. Kyle Kacal says guns don’t kill people—ping-pong kills people.

"I've heard of people being killed playing ping-pong—ping-pongs are more dangerous than guns," he says. "Flat-screen TVs are injuring more kids today than anything."

The Consumer Product Safety Commission does warn that some sports equipment may have unexpected hazards—for instance, brands of tennis rackets have been recalled because of possible exposure to lead.

Also in the category of Things That Are Dangerous But Are Not Ping-pong: One model helicopter had to come off the shelves because of—yikes—“laceration hazards.”

But neither table tennis racquets nor table tennis itself appears to have hurt any children. For instance, it's nowhere to be found in a commission analysis noting the 13 toy-related deaths and 262,300 toy-related injuries to children under 15 in 2011. (If you have time to waste, the commission's lists of recalled sports equipment and toys make for engrossing—and sometimes distressing—reading.)

The lifetime rancher, who will take his seat in 2013 as a freshman, says that new gun restrictions are unnecessary. Kacal, who reportedly operates a hunting business, notably came out against a bill instructing Texans how to secure their assault weapons.

"People know what they need to do to be safe. We don't need to legislate that—it's common sense," he said. "Once everyone's gun is locked up, then the bad guys know everyone's gun is locked up
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Old 12-21-2012, 06:27 PM   #177
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Old 12-21-2012, 07:01 PM   #178
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I'd like to think that the significant decrease in gun related murders is linked to the significant increase in the acceptability of CCWs.

But that's only what I'd like to think.

And maybe the less significant decrease in gun related homicides compared to gun related murders has something to do with those CCW holders taking care of the bad guys...

------

Perhaps the headlines should read: "Bare hands are positively identified as a murder weapon more often than all rifles combined"
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Old 12-21-2012, 08:07 PM   #179
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I think they should allow and persuade teachers/school staff to have CCW's. I am also completely ok with them making the CCW issuing process more thorough. I got mine so easily.
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Old 12-23-2012, 02:07 PM   #180
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Flashback: Clinton Requests $60 Million to Put Cops in Schools

The only thing I liked about Clinton when he was in the White House was his philandering. Now he is making the "Campaigner in Chief" look worse every day. The media would rather cry over dead children than protect them.
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