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Old 08-20-2011, 04:10 PM   #61
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Umm, doesn't that just increase the flood of money moving out of our economy and into the pockets of those overseas, all the while reducing the finite amount of every family's budget that could be spent on other things?
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No, it means that your tree huggers have money to spend on their R&D for 'cleaner' and 'safer' power. It also means that your neighbor keeps his Suburban in the garage more often or sells it and buys a Prius.
Both points of view are correct.

Yes, higher energy prices will force people to be more energy-conscious, and more money will go into R&D on "green" energy sources. People will buy "cleaner" cars, and traffic congestion will decrease slightly. We know all of this as a matter of historical precedent.

It will also harm "the economy" as a whole. More money will flow out of the US to oil-producing nations, sales of domestically-produced automobiles will decline relative to sales of Asian automobiles (though, in fairness, the Volt may change things this time around), and don't forget that much of that money spent on "green energy" comes from taxes and deficit spending, that money could otherwise have been spent on consumer goods, food and trackdays. And while a lot of R&D on "green" energy happens in the US, that's a trivial sum of money compared to actually manufacturing all of the so-called "green" products (solar cells, lithium batteries, etc), and 0% of that takes place within the US, so that's yet more money flowing out of the country.


None of this is theory or speculation. All of this has happened before.
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Old 08-20-2011, 08:31 PM   #62
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You're right though. The dirty secret is that the only way to get the economy in motion is for people to start buying things again.
Is that accurate? I hear that on the TV and radio all the time...

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Umm, doesn't that just increase the flood of money moving out of our economy and into the pockets of those overseas, all the while reducing the finite amount of every family's budget that could be spent on other things?
Where do you think the USA gets most of its imported oil from? (Hint: there is minimal, if any, overseas transport involved).

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Of course, if the oil prices were lower, the same families would take the extra money and go to walmart to spend it so that money could...go....overs... oh, never mind.
Does the money that family spends at Wal-Mart end up overseas?
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Old 08-20-2011, 09:05 PM   #63
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Does the money that family spends at Wal-Mart end up overseas?
Someone has to make the cheap TVs, and Jeans, and replacement light bulbs to supply wal-mart with...they damn sure aren't doing much of that in our neck of the world...
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Old 08-20-2011, 10:04 PM   #64
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They lend us money so we can buy their cheap crap.
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Old 08-20-2011, 10:44 PM   #65
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Where do you think the USA gets most of its imported oil from? (Hint: there is minimal, if any, overseas transport involved).
In May of 2011, 42.4% of the US's crude oil imports came from producers in Africa and Asia, 23.5% from Canada, 19.9% from South America, 13.5% from Mexico, and 0.7% from Norway.

I don't know if 100% of our imports from Canada and Mexico travel via pipeline, or if overseas shipments are used to service some fields in those countries. If we assume imports from those two countries are exclusively by pipeline and no shipping is involved, then "overseas" imports (those from Asia, Africa, South America and Europe) account for slightly over 63% of total imports.

Domestic production of crude oil in the US is presently around 5.5m barrels / day, which accounts for slightly more than 1/3 of total US crude oil consumption.
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Old 08-31-2011, 02:11 PM   #66
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Is that accurate? I hear that on the TV and radio all the time...
Well, the US economy runs on New car sales, New & existing home sales, and other consumer spending. Unemployment is running at a conservative 9% (with actual unemployment possibly edging 20%). Foreclosures are not ebbing. Call a local bankruptcy attorney to find out how busy they are.

So yes, US Consumers must buy things to keep the economy rolling. If one could assume that most US consumers are buying things without cash (i.e., they don't have the cash, but think they can just buy on a credit card), then US consumers must buy those plasma screen TV's, Vinyl windows, and new cars with credit.

The government doesn't create jobs, but they sure do have the ability to negatively impact how employers spend their money. Increasing taxes on "the wealthy" also does what? Help those with money find ways to hold onto their money instead of injecting it into the economy.
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Old 08-31-2011, 02:14 PM   #67
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Help those with money find ways to hold onto their money instead of injecting it into the economy.

timely, just read something that mirrored that today:

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It wasn’t until Mr. Buffett turned 75 that he turned his attention to charity, saying that he was better off spending his time allocating capital at Berkshire Hathaway — where he believed he could create even greater wealth to give away — than he would ever be at devoting his energies toward running a foundation.
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[L]ast year, Carlos Slim Helú, the Mexican telecommunications billionaire, defended his lack of charity and his refusal to sign the Giving Pledge. “What we need to do as businessmen is to help to solve the problems, the social problems,” he said in an interview on CNBC. “To fight poverty, but not by charity.”
this was in regards to super rich not giving money to charity and arguing that their businesses are charity in the sense that people benefit from products, jobs, and indirect positve impact to suppliers and retailers. Ending with the question:

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Do we want highly talented entrepreneurs and investors dropping out of the private sector and giving their money away after they’ve reached a certain point, say $5 billion. Or do we want them to focus on creating more wealth and prosperity?
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Old 08-31-2011, 02:14 PM   #68
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It will also harm "the economy" as a whole. More money will flow out of the US to oil-producing nations, sales of domestically-produced automobiles will decline relative to sales of Asian automobiles (though, in fairness, the Volt may change things this time around), and don't forget that much of that money spent on "green energy" comes from taxes and deficit spending, that money could otherwise have been spent on consumer goods, food and trackdays. And while a lot of R&D on "green" energy happens in the US, that's a trivial sum of money compared to actually manufacturing all of the so-called "green" products (solar cells, lithium batteries, etc), and 0% of that takes place within the US, so that's yet more money flowing out of the country.


None of this is theory or speculation. All of this has happened before.
Accurate points about focusing on "green" production right now. Hell, any production is what we need. Don't limit us to forcing Green production or green jobs.

Once US auto makers produce excellent products they will earn more sales.

Although, I do think that when oil or fuel prices increase, that only makes it more expensive or more difficult for overseas production to be competitive.
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