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Old 12-20-2011, 01:30 PM   #1
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Default Obama vs Civil Liberies - backlash

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Old 12-20-2011, 04:31 PM   #2
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Where is this in the mass media? He underestimated the general intelligence of this nation and our disdain for statism outside of "the little square states" or south of the Mason Dixon (the Red River).
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Old 12-20-2011, 04:51 PM   #3
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The mass media is not our watchdog, it's our gov't's lap dog.
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Old 12-20-2011, 05:14 PM   #4
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So, Jason, did you contact your congresscritter and express your hate for this bill? Hustly?
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Old 12-20-2011, 05:59 PM   #5
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I think this is the issue that will ultimately convince me not to vote for Obama again. This is just utterly unbelievable. If he signs it I'm probably going Ron Paul, or just won't vote (for the first time ever).
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Old 12-20-2011, 06:05 PM   #6
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I don't know why so many people continue to believe that ANY candidate vetted by the mass media is anything but a puppet of the power elite.

Remember how Obama went from zero to hero aka "top tier" in days? The media ANOINT the Establishment-acceptable candidates.

P.S. blaen99: yes I did. My congressworm btw is as bad as they come wrt being pro welfare/warfare/big gov.
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Old 12-20-2011, 08:02 PM   #7
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A write in vote for Ron Paul is a vote for obama.
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Old 12-20-2011, 09:58 PM   #8
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But it is also neither a vote directly for Obama nor for whichever clown the Republicans actually put up. I acknowledge that it would be a throwaway vote, but for the first time I think I'm actually warming up to that idea.
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Old 12-20-2011, 11:07 PM   #9
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every write-in/third party vote is pretty much a lost republican vote, and thus a vote for obama; this you must understand. If you seriously dont want him to be pres, you need to either not vote or vote for the republican nomination.

This is why G HW Bush lost his reelection.
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Old 12-21-2011, 01:02 AM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JasonC SBB View Post
The mass media is not our watchdog, it's our gov't's lap dog.
Trust me, the mass media is nobody's dog. With very few exceptions (eg: NPR, BBC) the principle function of every media outlet is to make money.
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Old 12-21-2011, 02:13 AM   #11
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Originally Posted by Braineack View Post
every write-in/third party vote is pretty much a lost republican vote, and thus a vote for obama; this you must understand. If you seriously dont want him to be pres, you need to either not vote or vote for the republican nomination.

This is why G HW Bush lost his reelection.
Brainy...Brainy...Man, I would have expected you realize those are myths :(. Myths that are predicate on your state actually being a split state, for that matter! (Not a single person posting here would have been able to affect the HW Bush elections, as an example.)

As for the HW Bush elections specifically....

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Even tho ALL the evidence shows that without Ross Perot, Clinton would have certainly humiliated both George Bush Sr. AND Bob Dole worse than he did. I mean from polling right after Ross Perot dropped out(before reentry) in July '92 http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpag...prod=permalink showing Clinton LEADING WITH A MAJORITY the fact that throughout the campaign, in September '92, Clinton was still leading before Perot's reentry with far over 50 percent http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpag...prod=permalink as Bush polled exactly what he got in the general. and when Perot came back in October '92, polls showed Perot taking more from CLINTON http://people-press.org/reports/pdf/19921026.pdf See Bush polled in the polls with and without Perot exactly the same percent of the vote he actually got that year. So why does the myth still persist?
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This myth is related to each of the others, and is usually followed closely by one of the other myths by way of explanation. "You're wasting your vote because... (fill in blank with one of the other myths)."

But how can voting for the candidate you most closely identify with be a wasted vote? Isn't compromising your beliefs on important issues really the wasted vote? Isn't settling for second best, or the lesser of two evils really the wasted vote?

The point of having a representative democracy is for each citizen to be able to effect the future of their community. Elections are the main mechanism for "we the people" to tell our representatives how we feel.

It is vitally important that when we make that statement, it is accurate. Sending the wrong message by compromising your vote lessens your ability to influence the direction of public policy.

Again, I ask you, which is the wasted vote - A vote for a major party candidate you despise because you despise the other guy a little bit more - or - A vote for a candidate who says what you'd say if you were running for office?
Annd...

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Many of us who have voted for "third" party candidates have been unfairly blamed for electing the candidate we would least like to see in office.

The [il]logic goes like this: "If you vote Green, you're taking votes away from the Democrat, and helping the Republican win. If you vote Libertarian, you're taking votes away from the Republican and helping the Democrat."

If you assume that my "third" party vote is taking away from the Democrats or Republicans, you're assuming that those two parties somehow have a right to my vote. They do not.

My "third" party vote does not come from either major party, it comes from me. If it takes away from any statistic, it's the number of potential voters who've given up on elections because they never feel represented.

This is part of the whole "lesser of two evils" syndrome from which America suffers. It is closely related the myth of apathy, and is used to discourage people from voicing their true opinions.

Anything that discourages citizens from voicing their opinions, or voting their conscience, is a threat to free speech, and a threat to democracy.

More parties means that a wider variety of viewpoints is represented in an election. With more viewpoints represented we'll increase the number of potential voters who actually show up to vote. A vote for a "third" party candidate is not a vote for "the wrong" major party candidate. It is what it is: A vote for a "third" party candidate.

Last edited by blaen99; 12-21-2011 at 02:51 AM.
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Old 12-26-2011, 05:42 PM   #12
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Trust me, the mass media is nobody's dog. With very few exceptions (eg: NPR, BBC) the principle function of every media outlet is to make money.
Bingo. And untill the best money to be made is NOT with the sensationalistic bullshit being shoveled out, you will get all the crap we are so familiar with.

We can have horrible legislation passed night and day, but people will get the scoop on some out-of-context quote because thats what gets them tuning in and sells add revenue.

It beats gov run media, but it definitely has its issues.
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Old 12-26-2011, 08:25 PM   #13
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Oh so you don't think it's possible for media corporations' editors in chief to have certain general "editorial guidelines" put forth by the owners, despite having to remain competitive and make money? You don't think it's possible for business organizations to have making money as the primary purpose, but have the owners also have some say in dictating a couple of items be "off limits"?
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Old 12-26-2011, 11:42 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by blaen99 View Post
Brainy...Brainy...Man, I would have expected you realize those are myths :(.
Ross Perot, long time friend of Bill Clinton approaches him before the election and proposes that he helps him get elected by splitting the conservative vote in exchange for political favor upon election. If the Democrats have Nader or some other nut garner enough support to split their vote the same thing would happen to them in the upcoming election. Same with conservatives as Brain rightfully pointed out.

Do you know how John McCain got to the top of the Republican ballot last cycle? He was trailing in the polls and in the other states' primaries up until the Florida primary. Hillary and Obama mysteriously weren't both on the primary ballot in Florida due to a "problem" that was manufactured by the Democrat Party. The Democrat voters then had only one choice to vote for in their primary so their votes weren't necessary. So a large number of Democrat Party voters switched their affiliation to Republican (a record number of persons switched to Republican affiliation just before the primary) for the election so they could pick the easiest Republican to beat. After winning the Florida primary in a surprise landslide, McCain was suddenly the front runner for the Republicans and remained there.

Shenanigans? Not in politics.

Last edited by sixshooter; 12-26-2011 at 11:56 PM.
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Old 12-27-2011, 12:41 AM   #15
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See provided sources, Sixshooter. Even in the worst case situation, Perot took as many votes from Clinton as from Bush. In virtually every other case, Perot took more votes from Clinton than Bush as per polls.
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