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Old 07-12-2011, 10:20 AM   #41
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Originally Posted by Scrappy Jack View Post
Australia appears to have held over 13 billion USD worth of US sovereign debt as of April 2011.

China, Japan and the UK are the top three holders.

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And China is accelerating fastest. Maybe so they can foreclose??
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Old 07-12-2011, 10:22 AM   #42
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"PAIN AND SUFFERING" is the ONLY way out of debt. I don't care if you're an individual, a corporation, or the most powerful country in the world, it is not possible to get out of debt without pain and suffering.

This
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Old 07-12-2011, 10:25 AM   #43
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No, no, no you can definitely borrow your way out of debt. It works. You just keep borrowing....and then you borrow some more to cover what you just borrowed. Just keep going like that, and whenever you think you've reached the end, borrow more to cover your current debt.

I see no problems with this plan.
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Old 07-12-2011, 10:26 AM   #44
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nope, none. I've done a good job dodging bill collectors so far...Hopefully I can hold out till the statute of limitations.

I'm doing it for the middle class.
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Old 07-12-2011, 01:39 PM   #45
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Originally Posted by Really Smart Economist
“We have not proposed a tax hike for the wealthy that would take effect in the middle of a recession. Even the proposals that have come out of Congress – which by the way were different from the proposals I put forward – still wouldn’t kick in until after the recession was over. ... the last thing you want to do is raise taxes in the middle of a recession because that would just suck up – take more demand out of the economy and put business further in a hole.”
Quote:
Originally Posted by Same guy
Millions of entrepreneurs who have been waiting to invest in their businesses will receive new tax incentives to help them expand, buy new equipment or make upgrades – freeing up other money to hire new workers.

Guess who?!
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Old 07-12-2011, 02:15 PM   #46
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**** EO "Equal Outcome"

It's time to adopt a different form of EO - "Equal Opportunity"

It's time we started discriminating based on economic productivity - it starts with eliminating compulsory minimum wage.

"You don't want to earn enough to survive? Then **** you, go die"

"You want to have 18 children and not be able to afford them? Then **** you, go die - your children can die too, no need to keep your genes in the gene pool."

"You want to be born handicapped, and you need $18,000/month worth of medical care to survive? Then go make $18,000/month doing something productive to pay for your life. Can't afford to live? Then **** you, go die."

Paid into Social security all of your life, and now you're retired? Social security was designed to be indexed with average life expectancy, you might not be done earning your keep. Once you do surpass average life expectancy, you might end up taking a pay-cut if this country can't afford you - we'll try to pay for you though, because you did actually contribute your fair share toward your retirement - if you weren't on food stamps for the last 73 years.

Not near retirement now? Don't expect to get a social security check when you surpass average life expectancy. It's your own responsibility to make sure you can rest when you age - social security is not a retirement plan.

Adopt my plan, and you'll see that in just 6 months not only will our nations deficit become an almost overnight surplus, but our unemployment would drop to globally record lows, and our economic growth will shoot straight into the double digits.

Go ahead, someone tell me I'm wrong. **** you.

If government decided to do this, I would be happy to go find me a $5/hr job to help the turn around.
you are wrong. **** you.
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Old 07-12-2011, 03:14 PM   #47
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fooger03
"PAIN AND SUFFERING" is the ONLY way out of debt. I don't care if you're an individual, a corporation, or the most powerful country in the world, it is not possible to get out of debt without pain and suffering.
DEFAULT is the best way out. Let the CREDITORS to the US Fed Gov take a haircut. If you loan money to a deadbeat, you DESERVE to lose your money.

The good thing about it is that everyone will then understand that gov't's are deadbeats and cannot be trusted with money. The slate will be wiped clean, and the gov't will have to run a realistic budget going forward, and creditors now will charge much higher interest rates when loaning to governments. This way there will be far less tendency to run up debt to begin with. And voters will understand that politicians over-promise entitlements they cannot deliver.

As for those dependent on the public trough - the gov't will go insolvent one way or another. It is inevitable. The accounting cannot be escaped. The only question is, in what form will this insolvency take? IOW, in what order will the sacred cows be gored?

I suspect the order will be:

- gov't contractors
- military (pull troops out of bases in 100 countries)
- gov't pension funds
- oldsters
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Old 07-13-2011, 01:32 PM   #48
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good read:

Quote:
Political trench warfare reached a stalemate in Washington, DC this past week as the White House and GOP lawmakers continued to square off in the debt ceiling debate. President Obama put his thumb on the launch button of his party’s thermonuclear equivalent weapon, suggesting seniors may not get Social Security checks because of Republican intransigence in the talks. But beyond the simplistic jab and parry of tax hikes versus spending cuts, there’s something much more significant at stake: two vastly different visions of America’s future.

Despite Obama’s sudden head fake attempt to appear above the fray on the issue, he is not. Barack Obama is as far left as politicians come. He’s a product of his upbringing and radical influences, a culture that despises America’s capitalism and exceptionalism. In his America, one in every seven Americans is on food stamps, one in two households pays no federal taxes, and the wealth creators are vilified for their success.

It should be no surprise that Obama’s vision for America is to create as many wards of the state as he can, trapping more citizens in the utter despair of big government dependency. It is this kind of lefty mentality that drives his position on the debt ceiling debate. Tax hikes are the only solution in the mindset of the average liberal/Democrat/progressive/socialist/Marxist (you pick; they all mean the same thing).

In contrast, the GOP envisions an America where less government and more individual freedoms stimulate personal responsibility and independence. On the debt ceiling debate, spending cuts are a necessary (and commonsense) first order of business to control runaway debt and keep government in check. Tax hikes will only stifle business growth and stymie job creation.


I’ve got personal history with both visions, so I view this debate from a perspective most Americans don’t have. I grew up in the 1960s and 70s in the housing projects of Newark, NJ, in literally one of the most despairing environments one can imagine. It was big government-created misery, a mini-version of the welfare-state vision Obama has for the entire country.

My father was a blue-collar guy, and unlike most of my friends’ parents, he worked. The average “family” in the projects consisted of a single parent of several children on welfare, and because of that dependence, there was little incentive to work. My dad was severely disabled, partially paralyzed, yet he worked hard every day to support his family.



When I was a young boy I once asked him why he didn’t simply go on disability or welfare. He smiled and told me that once you accept government assistance, it’s hard to stop. He explained that government builds fences around people to trap them, but it is up to a man to build his own bridge out of poverty. After that I started to see the fences that surrounded the people who lived in the projects, fences made of welfare checks, food stamps, and other forms of assistance. They were content to live on just enough to survive, with no hope or promise of improving their lives.

My dad eventually built his bridge and pulled us out of poverty to a better life in a new city and state, and his lessons have stayed with me ever since. I grew into my conservative beliefs by example, seeing both the big government solution and the benefits of personal responsibility. There’s no comparison. Newark’s welfare culture was the most hopeless, bleak, and miserable existence I’ve ever experienced. The last thing I want to see is its expansion to the rest of America. Some days, I feel like we’re almost there.



On the debt ceiling debate, the choice is clear. We can allow Obama and the asylum-running lunatic Senate Democrats to push us closer to a total welfare state where we’re all penned inside fences we can’t see beyond, or we can allow the GOP to end the madness and help us all build bridges to a greater future. It starts with taking a stand. The time is now.



bridges > fences.
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Old 07-13-2011, 02:46 PM   #49
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If taxes are increased, intelligent individuals like myself and my GF will leave the country. I presume others will do the same.
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Old 07-13-2011, 03:15 PM   #50
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Originally Posted by hustler View Post
If taxes are increased, intelligent individuals like myself and my GF will leave the country. I presume others will do the same.
Why not just do like the most intelligent individuals do in the country and have a shitload of tax shelters?
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Old 07-13-2011, 03:43 PM   #51
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For a lower effective tax rate.
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Old 07-13-2011, 04:59 PM   #52
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I'd love a default. It's going to happen sooner or later; the longer we delay it, the worse the correction is going to be.
+1

The longer we put this off the worse/longer the meltdown will be. I'm thinking my kids will never see the crazy credit filled glory days we saw as kids. They will probably be farmers if this **** keeps going.
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Old 07-13-2011, 06:02 PM   #53
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Originally Posted by hustler View Post
Can we hurry up and get there rather than keep talking about it? I'm trying to get ready for agriculture and our new lives of modesty and community.
It is a glorious worker's paradise, comrade Hustler.



Quote:
Originally Posted by fooger03 View Post
If low income earners would start paying their fair share, they might start realizing that there's a problem.
That's a beautiful thought in it's simplicity and succinctness. I want that on a bumper sticker. Would buy.
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If taxes are increased, intelligent individuals like myself and my GF will leave the country. I presume others will do the same.
I've been trying to figure out where to possibly go. It would have been so much better if the people who wanted socialism so badly would have gone to one of the dozens of countries that was already socialist and left America for those who loved freedom. But socialists can't stand that. They want everyone to be cynical and miserable just like them.
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Old 07-13-2011, 06:10 PM   #54
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Hong Kong is the place to be these days but I don't know how that works with China. We'd go to Australia.
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Old 07-13-2011, 09:25 PM   #55
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There are 8 other countries which have more economic freedom than the USA as per the world liberty index. Australia is one of them, as are HK, NZ, Singapore, Switzerland, and Ireland IIRC.
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Old 07-13-2011, 11:05 PM   #56
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New Zealand is expensive to live in and the salaries are a joke, singapore is ridiculously expensive, hell a low end vw polo is something absurd, like $100k there, switzerland they pretty much send you to the gallows for speeding. But seriously, they base your speeding ticket on your income ( http://www.worldcarfans.com/11008132...or-swedish-sls ). Australia bans video games and has other backwards rules. I mean, if I cant kill a hooker in a video game, I guess I'll have to to do IRL. Cant comment on HK or ireland but I bet HK is expensive like singapore is. Ireland would probably be nice, I think they are a haven for corporate headquarters.

As much as everyone ***** about the US, I dont see many people moving. And for the expats that move, good for them, because at least they had the ***** to do something they believe in unlike all the people who throw blanket threats of moving yet never do.
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Old 07-14-2011, 12:53 AM   #57
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That's why I said "economic freedom". Some places are high on economic freedom and low on individual freedom. Singapore is an extreme example. Actually housing is tiny and rents are high, and you probably wouldn't want to own a car, but their income tax is very low.
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Old 07-14-2011, 08:59 AM   #58
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Coming in late here, and haven't read most of the thread... my answer is almost always, "do away with career politicians". Some of these old ******* who have been at it for their whole lives have lost touch with reality and aren't truly representatives of ours, and just don't give a **** about us commoners or our country. No taxation without representation... hmph. A lot of them have made themselves millionaires by being in politics. There should be a maximum cap on years spent in government office, minimum age (for experience in the world, none of these 20 somethings in office with no experience) and pay should be no more than 110% of what you made in your previous year before entering politics. Take away the monetary incentive and cycle more common people through offices. I think that was kind of the way our country was envisioned.

Also, I would like to see flat tax, but I'm not holding my breath.

I will be the first to admit, I don't know much about politics, so I may be way off base to most of you, I don't know. Just to me seems like common people who are truly fed up with the way things are run would be the best people to turn things around. Not career politicians who have a group of buddies in every branch, cutting secret deals and scheming devious schemes as they often do. And never mind getting a commoner into office without **** tons of money to back him up. Some make it, but it's mostly people with wealth who can afford to get into some form of political office. You have to have millions or tens of millions of dollars just to campaign to get into higher offices.

Last edited by NA6C-Guy; 07-14-2011 at 09:09 AM.
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Old 07-14-2011, 10:23 AM   #59
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Keep up the good work GOP:

Quote:
US President Barack Obama stormed out of tense debt-limit talks Wednesday with his top Republican foes after declaring he was ready to stake his reelection on the outcome, a Republican aide said.

After Republican House Majority Leader Eric Cantor proposed to raise the US debt ceiling in more than one catch-all vote, Obama got "heated" and insisted on one comprehensive deal, said the aide, who requested anonymity.

Obama said he would not be "afraid to veto" a short-term approach or "defend it to the American people" and warned that a US debt default would amount to "a tax increase on every American," said the aide.

Obama said "I have reached the point where I say enough," and added "I've reached my limit. This may bring my presidency down, but I will not yield on this," according to the aide.

There was no immediate comment from the White House.

Poor baby, someone took away his lollipop!
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Old 07-14-2011, 10:31 AM   #60
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Keep up the good work GOP:




Poor baby, someone took away his lollipop!
Being president must be HARD WORK when you don't have party rule. "Oh my god, I can't control the actions of congress - I'm supposed to have power over them, right? Guess I'll just throw a hissy fit"

The mere fact that a single party actually controlled not only both houses of congress, but also two branches of our federal government, is fundamentally against the principles of our federal government in the first place.
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