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Old 06-25-2016, 10:28 AM
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Default The US Constitution.

Recently, I happened upon this image:





Now, that's an interesting line of thought. According to a literal interpretation of the US Constitution (amended), access to assault weapons is, in fact, a basic liberty, whereas medical care is not.

Contrast this to the constitutions of the various leading socioeconomic powers of Europe, in which medical care (and housing, and education, and security from crime, and shelter from tyranny) are guaranteed basic liberties, whereas access to weapons is not.





Discuss.
Attached Thumbnails The US Constitution.-80-blob_9ca69d0323a690bc36efdd37b5719a88d425a095.png  
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Old 06-25-2016, 10:52 AM
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First question that must be answered:

Are right things that exist naturally and are merely recognized (and protected) by government, or are rights created and granted by government?
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Old 06-25-2016, 10:58 AM
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Answer is obvious: "Rights" are fictitious concepts created by man, and codified in law, under the justification (in US law) of being the design of a supreme deity. Abstract ideas such as the right to life do not exist in nature.


Of course, if God wills it to be so, then why does Man need to defend it? But that's the subject of an entirely different thread of conversation...
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Old 06-25-2016, 11:02 AM
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Then if rights are arbitrary creations, why stop at healthcare? Why don't we just create a "right to be rich"? Then everyone would be rich.

Last edited by mgeoffriau; 06-25-2016 at 11:20 AM. Reason: I don't know what "creatons" are.
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Old 06-25-2016, 11:14 AM
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Originally Posted by mgeoffriau View Post
Then if rights are arbitrary creatons, why stop at healthcare? Why don't we just create a "right to be rich"? Then everyone would be rich.
Not sure- you'd have to ask the authors of the various national constitutions. Thus far, none of them have guaranteed a right to monetary prosperity, though a few of them have a guaranteed basic income / a right to not be poor.
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Old 06-25-2016, 11:27 AM
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How can a right be dependent on someone else providing a service?

a right is an action that can be exercised. You don't need permission or to wait for someone else ot provide it.


The idea of universal healthcare is not American whatsoever. The principle foundations of the America is: life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness.

Life not meaning: the government providing healthcare, but the freedom to take all the actions required by the nature of a rational being for the support of (ie. defending yourself with black guns). Yes, I ended that sentence in a preposition.

Last edited by Braineack; 06-25-2016 at 11:47 AM.
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Old 06-25-2016, 11:28 AM
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When the Constitution was authored, the concept of "Health Care" wasn't a concept, neither was a lot of other "concepts" that the completely or borderline socialist governments of most of Europe operate under. If Healthcare is to be a right, and we're going to compare it to guns, let's see it in the 28th Amendment.

Since the Governments of most European countries turn over every few decades (either because we kick their asses or save their asses in whatever war gets started because they're all pussies), they completely rewrite their laws based on whoever wins. Why the **** don't Europeon countries take a cue from the US about how awesome our form of Gov't is and be more like us, rather than the left-leaning in our country constantly ask why we can't be more like Europe, which basically means "why can't we give people more free **** so they'll vote Democrat". Britain is an outlier in how old the laws governing their country are compared to the rest of Europe. Sure, they're not a pure monarchy anymore, and Parliament is elected, but based on recent activity, it looks like the people are finally seeing the light that getting sucked deeper into the rest of Europe's left-leaning bullshit is really bad for them.

When the left talks about "the right to healthcare" in the US, they want you to think "free healthcare for the poor" because that's what kicks in the white guilt. But what it really means is free healthcare for everybody. The conspiracy theorists say that Obamacare was intentionally designed to fail so that when it did, poor people would throw **** fit and demand truly free health-care... free as in "paid for by the gov't"... as in "paid for by taxpayers with jobs"... as in "free **** for democrats".

And if a "right" means the gov't has to pay for it, why can't I demand the gov't supply me with arms because that's clearly a right. "I'll take some hearing aids, an M249G with 10k rds, and a surplus Humvee... it's my right!"
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Old 06-25-2016, 11:51 AM
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Emotional facebook postings... Its the same as when groups try to propose gun control without knowledge of guns; they try to ban the ones that stylistically scare them like their kids skinny jeans, instead of looking into actual ballistic energy capability. (why do I need a license for a 50 cal, but not my m1a?)

The same gets mixed up with health care. ITS A RIGHT/ITS A PRIVILEGE; no, you're missing the point again. It's a need. Instead of focusing on making something free we should probably look at why it's become so expensive and why our culture has turned a "need" into a profit machine. There's no reason why pharm/"device" sales reps make substantially more than a doc on the front lines at your local hospital.
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Old 06-25-2016, 11:52 AM
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The idea of healthcare being a right, is on the same plain of saying I should be born with the right to dine at McDonalds for free.

Healthcare, by all definitions, is not a right.

the right to life, doesn't mean you have to feed, cloth, and keep me healthy, but that I have to right to earn food, buy clothes, and go see a doctor.

you have NO right to the actions or products of others.

Ask Russia about this.

Doctors aren't servants, they trade knowledge/service for capital gains. Although, if you're a fan of slavery, I can see how you'd like to enslave doctors for your own personal gains.
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Old 06-25-2016, 12:00 PM
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Concept of "negative" rights vs. "positive" rights:
Negative rights = the right not to be infringed upon, e.g. the right for your **** not be taken or you to be aggressed upon.
Positive rights = the right to stuff. The problem here is that the gov't has nothing if it doesn't take from someone else. So your "right to stuff" means a violation of someone else's right not to have stuff taken.
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Old 06-25-2016, 12:07 PM
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I'll leave this here because it's well written, always added to, and relevant to the topic.

Things That Are Not In the U.S. Constitution
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Old 06-25-2016, 01:10 PM
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Originally Posted by Braineack View Post
The idea of healthcare being a right, is on the same plain of saying I should be born with the right to dine at McDonalds for free.

Healthcare, by all definitions, is not a right.

the right to life, doesn't mean you have to feed, cloth, and keep me healthy, but that I have to right to earn food, buy clothes, and go see a doctor.
I believe I was also born with the right for clean water, garbage pickup, road repairs and welfare.
Healthcare is the same as the above. It just takes a better organised country to achieve it? Then again who can focus on **** like that with all that annoying automatic fire in the background. I need an aspirin.

After all its kind of what taxes are for....

On a side note... I split my head open in Dallas on holidays. LA tried to charge me $135 for basic painkillers and antibiotics.

Australia: same drugs < 30 (usd... 22?)
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Old 06-25-2016, 01:27 PM
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Originally Posted by adryargument View Post
On a side note... I split my head open in Dallas on holidays. LA tried to charge me $135 for basic painkillers and antibiotics.

Australia: same drugs < 30 (usd... 22?)
Free market. Capitalism, yo...
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Old 06-25-2016, 03:01 PM
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Originally Posted by adryargument View Post
I believe I was also born with the right for clean water, garbage pickup, road repairs and welfare.
Healthcare is the same as the above. It just takes a better organised country to achieve it? Then again who can focus on **** like that with all that annoying automatic fire in the background. I need an aspirin.

After all its kind of what taxes are for....

On a side note... I split my head open in Dallas on holidays. LA tried to charge me $135 for basic painkillers and antibiotics.

Australia: same drugs < 30 (usd... 22?)
"You believe" means nothing. Especially considering you don't even have the basic understanding of what a right is--those aren't rights by definition--just your warped sense of silver-spoon-in-mouth entitlement: Clean water isn't a right, Garbage pickup isn't a right, road repair isn't a right, welfare isn't a right. Rights are to take actions, not rewards from your Overlord. Rights impose no obligation from another person, but the obligation for others to leave you alone. Our Constitution GUARANTEES these rights, it makes no mention to all the services you mention.

Things your taxes pay for aren't rights. Those are literally the negation of rights--the gov't takes away earned income by the threat or jail or physical violence in order to give you something for free. Those are services the gov't provides by taking away from a minority, to unequally give to another group.

If you have a problem with automatic gun-fire, it might be the weapons the gov't sold to drug dealers and criminals, regular Americans don't have access to such weapons, and surely don't go around firing them. Most Americans respec each other's rights, meaning their

George Michael may have said it best here:
All we have to see: Is that I don't belong to you and you don't belong to me.
Freedom, freedom, freedom
You've gotta give for what you take


We have few certain specific rights and only these. We were the first truly free country in the entire history of mankind and we quickly became the most successful and powerful as result. Why in the utter **** would you want to turn back to a system we fought again and has proven failed throughout all recordable history? your "rights" are a complete and total abandonment of the moral principles the US was founded on. That is of course, unless you like waiting in line for bread.
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Old 06-25-2016, 03:01 PM
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Originally Posted by bahurd View Post
Free market. Capitalism, yo...
sounds amazing, how can we make that happen?
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Old 06-25-2016, 03:27 PM
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Originally Posted by Braineack View Post
"You believe" means nothing.
Actually my beliefs mean I can walk down the road and get cheap healthcare when I need it.
Your rights currently mean your most likely going to know someone who dies sooner than they ought to.

In regards to my problem with automatic fire... That's your turf.
Biggest news story here lately was someone holding their dad hostage with a home made pistol.
I guess if that's the biggest threat I can find in dark alleys I would say as a nation we are pretty successful, free, powerful.

****. It. I'm out.
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Old 06-25-2016, 03:30 PM
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Originally Posted by Braineack View Post
sounds amazing, how can we make that happen?
Just climb in the trough.


Attached Thumbnails The US Constitution.-80-its_easy_sub2_31a85fca6e3edd8eaac4e3a1e180e580e2e01ae0.jpg  
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Old 06-25-2016, 04:37 PM
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If government guarantees healthcare, then several things must happen (though not all):
1) If no-one wishes to become a Dr., then some people must be forced (here comes the gun) to become one.
2) The state will become bankrupt.
3) Services must be rationed.

What was said up above.... Positive Rights vs Negative Rights (or laws)

The concept of the left is that if the nation on the whole is affluent, then anyone born in that nation should have some minimum quality of life (minimum income, etc). We are a different nation from that concept. Equal opportunity vs equal outcomes.
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Old 06-25-2016, 08:40 PM
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Originally Posted by adryargument View Post

****. It. I'm out.
Youre australian yeah? Same.

Id be willing to bet money that I can predict and disprove most of your beliefs regarding this threads topic.

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Old 06-26-2016, 07:38 AM
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Originally Posted by DNMakinson View Post
The concept of the left is that if the nation on the whole is affluent, then anyone born in that nation should have some minimum quality of life (minimum income, etc). We are a different nation from that concept.
Que?

Entitlement programs such as medicaid, food stamps, medicare, housing assistance, public schools, social security, etc., make up more than 50% of the federal budget.

There is most certainly an entrenched policy in the US that a minimum standard of living is provided to all citizens, funded by a combination of tax revenues and borrowing. None of it is written into the constitution, and some of it is discretionary rather than mandated spending, but it exists.


If the US were to have been founded today, our constitution would look rather different.
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