2005 speed motor in a 96NA?
11-05-2009, 11:57 PM
#23
I'm not going to waste my time researching specifics on something I don't even care about to spoon feed this **** to you. In fact, almost no one here has done this swap, so its rare to say the least. Maybe a few, but I don't even know about them.
The msm ecu is completely different from even other NBs. NB ecu's and the way they control the alternator, ac, and a few other things is different from the way NA's do it. Lots of people have commented on how much of a nightmare the MSM ecu is, and how different everything is between msm ecu/wiring and other miata's.
What makes you think an NA ecu with bandaids or a piggyback will just magically be able to controll an MSM engine?
You want to be billy badass and pull off this swap and prove us all wrong I have no problems with that at all.
In fact that would be cool to read.
So go ahead, do it.
I'll stop posting and watch your awesome progress.
The msm ecu is completely different from even other NBs. NB ecu's and the way they control the alternator, ac, and a few other things is different from the way NA's do it. Lots of people have commented on how much of a nightmare the MSM ecu is, and how different everything is between msm ecu/wiring and other miata's.
What makes you think an NA ecu with bandaids or a piggyback will just magically be able to controll an MSM engine?
You want to be billy badass and pull off this swap and prove us all wrong I have no problems with that at all.
In fact that would be cool to read.
So go ahead, do it.
I'll stop posting and watch your awesome progress.
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11-06-2009, 12:09 AM
#25
What I am saying is that you can't just crimp a few new wire ends on to your existing harness and have it control the new engine sensors. The wiring on the engine is completely different. They have a different ignition and timing system than the NA ecu can understand. If you really want to do this swap, you need to have a harness and ecu from a mazdaspeed.
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11-06-2009, 01:26 AM
#26
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The easiest thing to do would be to just get a stand alone ECU and re wire the engine your self. At least, thats what I would do. It really would not be that hard, I did most of the FSAE car myself last year. Plus, you would have a nice ECU setup.
Whether you will listen to me or not...
Whether you will listen to me or not...
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11-06-2009, 08:08 AM
#27
What I would do if I were you, is first realize that these guys have been doing this a while. Listen to them. Also realize that when you are a newb, you will sound retarded to the rest of the members whether you are or not.
Now on the swap, just know that it will be a project that will cost you some money and sweat. I personally would do it using a stand alone ecu. That will be the most expensive part. You will then have a motor that you can build on in the future. The new ecu will let you go from mild to wild
Now on the swap, just know that it will be a project that will cost you some money and sweat. I personally would do it using a stand alone ecu. That will be the most expensive part. You will then have a motor that you can build on in the future. The new ecu will let you go from mild to wild
Last edited by miata2fast; 11-06-2009 at 07:13 PM.
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11-06-2009, 09:09 AM
#29
Serious question: Do you understand the difference between the OBD systems from your OBDII '96 car and an engine from a 2005? Do you have any experience tuning a standalone ECU or in getting "bastardized" combinations to work well?
I ask because it seems like you don't (no offense). Just one sensor different between the old and new engines will completely baffle your car's ECU and give you all kinds of trouble getting the thing to run, or even start. Us standalone guys can tell you the havoc a bad sensor can have on how a car runs. This is why the standalone recommendation is a good one, you can tell it what sort of sensor it's reading and it can sort it out.
IIWY I'd stop looking here for in-depth advice on the swap, since most of us bolted turbos onto previously n/a engines. If you're serious about the swap just correspond with the guy who's already done it. OTOH, there isn't much difference between the MS engine and the one you already have, so ask yourself if you really need the MS engine, or if you're just after the turbo. Seems to me you're going about it the hard way, I'd love to see you prove me wrong though.
I ask because it seems like you don't (no offense). Just one sensor different between the old and new engines will completely baffle your car's ECU and give you all kinds of trouble getting the thing to run, or even start. Us standalone guys can tell you the havoc a bad sensor can have on how a car runs. This is why the standalone recommendation is a good one, you can tell it what sort of sensor it's reading and it can sort it out.
IIWY I'd stop looking here for in-depth advice on the swap, since most of us bolted turbos onto previously n/a engines. If you're serious about the swap just correspond with the guy who's already done it. OTOH, there isn't much difference between the MS engine and the one you already have, so ask yourself if you really need the MS engine, or if you're just after the turbo. Seems to me you're going about it the hard way, I'd love to see you prove me wrong though.
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11-06-2009, 09:32 AM
#30
WELLLL>....
Now that you don't have an ECU it's really simple.
Get a MS...wire it up to the MSM motor, basically building your own harness. Rely on tons of research and non-existant help since noone had likely done it before...and call us back in a year when you're done.
It could be kickass...but it will be hard...and that's pretty much your ONLY choice.
Now that you don't have an ECU it's really simple.
Get a MS...wire it up to the MSM motor, basically building your own harness. Rely on tons of research and non-existant help since noone had likely done it before...and call us back in a year when you're done.
It could be kickass...but it will be hard...and that's pretty much your ONLY choice.
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11-06-2009, 09:35 AM
#31
Unless you really want to do it for the learning experience and the unique factor...this project can oh so easily end in FAIL when there are much easier options out there for just a little more money. I say more money, but it will end up costing less in parts you have to find, fabricate, and spend your time researching and diagnosing.
I wouldn't consider this a "budget" route at all. This is the job of a retired electrical engineer with too much time on his hands working on his 3rd project car which his wife won't let him pour too much money into...but he still wants it to be kickass.
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11-06-2009, 03:46 PM
#32
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Wow.. really people, this isn't that hard..*unless I am brain dead from working to hard lately*
It be the same has if you do the swap for a 1.8 to a 1.6. Since the MSM motor is basically just a 99-00 motor with a turbo. All you to do is swap ever sensor from your 96 motor to the MSM motor, and I mean ever. Like Koto said any sensor from the 99+ could cause the 96 ecu to go nuts. You going to have to remove the cap on the back of the motor to install your CAS, since the 99+ motors don't use the CAS anymore. I can't remember if the MSM have a VICS or not. The 96 ECU will not be able to control the VICS at all, so you have to run it just open always.
It be the same has if you do the swap for a 1.8 to a 1.6. Since the MSM motor is basically just a 99-00 motor with a turbo. All you to do is swap ever sensor from your 96 motor to the MSM motor, and I mean ever. Like Koto said any sensor from the 99+ could cause the 96 ecu to go nuts. You going to have to remove the cap on the back of the motor to install your CAS, since the 99+ motors don't use the CAS anymore. I can't remember if the MSM have a VICS or not. The 96 ECU will not be able to control the VICS at all, so you have to run it just open always.
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11-06-2009, 05:26 PM
#33
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Hi, Chris –
You should read some of the threads that deal with fitting a ’99 or ’00 head to an NA Miata. You’ll have to deal with those issues, like turning the fuel rail into a return-type system. You may need to buy an earlier NB fuel rail – I already had a ’99 head on my car, so when I discovered the MSM fuel rail didn’t leave room for the NA fuel pressure regulator I already had a solution.
There aren’t any significant wiring issues. If you do this the sane way, you will swap over all of the sensors and the throttle body from your ’96 motor. You DO NOT want a Mazdaspeed ECU, unless someone gave you the ECU, the wiring and installed it all for you. That would be a huge undertaking, and the ECU has lots of safeguards that make it hard to get good power out of an MSM.
You will need some sort of higher volume fueling – IMHO nothing short of a replacement ecu is acceptable long term, but there are people happy with piggybacks. Keep your local smog test requirements in mind. I don’t think any of the aftermarket ECUs can talk to the smog test computer and pass the test used here in Washington state, with the possible exception of the FM-Link specific for the 96 and 97 cars. You could use a 94 thru 95 FM-Link by modifying your wiring harness, but it won’t talk OBDII to the smog test computer. FM sold a small number of plug-n-play FM-Links for your year and they have some very cool features. Whatever ecu you decide on will likely have a control circuit for a boost solenoid. Many take over an unused circuit in the wiring harness, but there will be some custom wiring required to run the boost solenoid. You’ll want to replace the MSM unit – it doesn’t seem to be particularly reliable.
Intake system – Going with an aftermarket ECU that uses manifold pressure instead of an air flow meter gives you more latitude in solving this. I’m using the FM one piece MSM intake, but it attaches to the MSM chassis brace. The BEGi intake won’t fit – it uses the area of the headlight motor.
MSM downpipes will physically fit your car, but the outlet flange location is nothing like your present exhaust. Any muffler shop should be able to adapt your current exhaust to the downpipe.
Intercooler & piping – too many options to be specific, but do NOT buy a big MSM intercooler if you have air conditioning. I had to change a ton of the a/c system to fit a used FM MSM intercooler. It would have been far easier to have bought an i/c designed to fit into an NA Miata.
There is an oil separator that bolts to the chassis brace and drains back into the oil pan on the intake side of the motor. While not essential, you will need to block off the return and provide a catch tank if you didn’t get this, and I suspect you did not.
Now, back to the MSM engine you can buy. A spun rod bearing should not result in damage to the cam bearings, but to be safe you should pull the cam cover off, remove both cams and look at the bearing surface machined into the head. If these are heavily scored the head is toast and the project probably makes no sense. I think they will be okay – the supply of oil to the cam is taken from upstream of the rod bearings, but if the car was run for a long time with the rod bearing slowly disintegrating, the head could be damaged.
If your engine is in good shape, you could try using your short block with the rest of the MSM engine. I’m fairly sure that your engine has the oil and water supply ports for the turbo, but they are plugged. My ’95 block has them. I think they stopped machining the ports in ’99, then did a short run of blocks for the MSM turbo.
Your ’96 clutch will not hold up. You may need a thicker radiator, too.
I threw a lot of info at you. Feel free to ask more questions if I didn’t go into enough detail.
You should read some of the threads that deal with fitting a ’99 or ’00 head to an NA Miata. You’ll have to deal with those issues, like turning the fuel rail into a return-type system. You may need to buy an earlier NB fuel rail – I already had a ’99 head on my car, so when I discovered the MSM fuel rail didn’t leave room for the NA fuel pressure regulator I already had a solution.
There aren’t any significant wiring issues. If you do this the sane way, you will swap over all of the sensors and the throttle body from your ’96 motor. You DO NOT want a Mazdaspeed ECU, unless someone gave you the ECU, the wiring and installed it all for you. That would be a huge undertaking, and the ECU has lots of safeguards that make it hard to get good power out of an MSM.
You will need some sort of higher volume fueling – IMHO nothing short of a replacement ecu is acceptable long term, but there are people happy with piggybacks. Keep your local smog test requirements in mind. I don’t think any of the aftermarket ECUs can talk to the smog test computer and pass the test used here in Washington state, with the possible exception of the FM-Link specific for the 96 and 97 cars. You could use a 94 thru 95 FM-Link by modifying your wiring harness, but it won’t talk OBDII to the smog test computer. FM sold a small number of plug-n-play FM-Links for your year and they have some very cool features. Whatever ecu you decide on will likely have a control circuit for a boost solenoid. Many take over an unused circuit in the wiring harness, but there will be some custom wiring required to run the boost solenoid. You’ll want to replace the MSM unit – it doesn’t seem to be particularly reliable.
Intake system – Going with an aftermarket ECU that uses manifold pressure instead of an air flow meter gives you more latitude in solving this. I’m using the FM one piece MSM intake, but it attaches to the MSM chassis brace. The BEGi intake won’t fit – it uses the area of the headlight motor.
MSM downpipes will physically fit your car, but the outlet flange location is nothing like your present exhaust. Any muffler shop should be able to adapt your current exhaust to the downpipe.
Intercooler & piping – too many options to be specific, but do NOT buy a big MSM intercooler if you have air conditioning. I had to change a ton of the a/c system to fit a used FM MSM intercooler. It would have been far easier to have bought an i/c designed to fit into an NA Miata.
There is an oil separator that bolts to the chassis brace and drains back into the oil pan on the intake side of the motor. While not essential, you will need to block off the return and provide a catch tank if you didn’t get this, and I suspect you did not.
Now, back to the MSM engine you can buy. A spun rod bearing should not result in damage to the cam bearings, but to be safe you should pull the cam cover off, remove both cams and look at the bearing surface machined into the head. If these are heavily scored the head is toast and the project probably makes no sense. I think they will be okay – the supply of oil to the cam is taken from upstream of the rod bearings, but if the car was run for a long time with the rod bearing slowly disintegrating, the head could be damaged.
If your engine is in good shape, you could try using your short block with the rest of the MSM engine. I’m fairly sure that your engine has the oil and water supply ports for the turbo, but they are plugged. My ’95 block has them. I think they stopped machining the ports in ’99, then did a short run of blocks for the MSM turbo.
Your ’96 clutch will not hold up. You may need a thicker radiator, too.
I threw a lot of info at you. Feel free to ask more questions if I didn’t go into enough detail.
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11-06-2009, 05:29 PM
#35
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After recieving this response I recieved a phone call from my buddy he said i can now have everything for $250
so full msm engine with spun rod bearing
spare 1.8 motor with a supposid crank pulley problem
At this price even if i just took the turbo manifold off and put it on my 1.8 it might be worth it for the money. But now I need to figure out if the manifold will fit since both heads are different.
so full msm engine with spun rod bearing
spare 1.8 motor with a supposid crank pulley problem
At this price even if i just took the turbo manifold off and put it on my 1.8 it might be worth it for the money. But now I need to figure out if the manifold will fit since both heads are different.
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