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Searched and could not find anything in the Miata realm. Was looking at doing a barrel style air to water intercooler. Mostly for simplicity of intercooler piping. I could fab up some bracket for this to sit between the radiator and valve cover, basically where the original air intake tube already sits. Only question is, how well will it work. I'm doing a low boost, 180-200 hp t25 build. Thinking I'm gonna plumb it into the heater core system.
Heater core? Do you mean you plan on using the waste heat of the IC to full time heat the cabin? AKA disconnect the heater from the cooling system of the car? Do you have the coolant re-route, and do you know the issue around cooling No4 in this car and the role the heater plays in this?
Look mate, the formula for trouble-free boost is well set out here, all that is required is to approach the search function and ask. FWIW it does not include A/W intercooling, and definitely doesn't include using the heater in that mode. There used to be a few people on here running A/W intercooling, but they are outliers and I don't know if any of them are still around. The fact that A/A intercooling is virtually universal here should tell you something.
OTOH, feel free to pursue this novel approach, but please post your experience and the lessons you and we can take from that experience in a build thread.
Yeah don't connect to the heater core. That's a turrible idea.
The air:water intercooler requires its own separate pump and rad. Flowing 180deg coolant through it would be awful; you would be better off not running an I/C.
yeah the heater core idea wasn't well thought out with the 180f coolant temp circulating within those lines.
new idea is gonna be to mount a heater core forward of the left front tire, behind the bumper and use it as a heat exchanger. i can fab up a side intake in the bumper and fab up a duct out of sheet metal. i found a good electric water pump that can be on all the time, circulating the coolant. also i might route the turbo coolant line into this system since like you said the turbo is getting coolant from a source that is already nearly 200f. it'd make sense to run cooler coolant to the turbo as well.
Here's a good video that talks about the advantages and disadvantages of bothe air to air and air to water intercoolers. Figured I'd post if anyone was interested. Alto of factory cars are going to air to water coolers... here's the link.
Interesting promo vid, some useful information, but a lot left out. They skated over applications, which is a critical consideration. In OP situation, what is your power goal, and what is your application? Street only, dual duty, or track only? Enduro racing or drag racing, or something in between?
Nobody has said you can't do A/W in this car, just that this community of adders of (often) serious power haven't embraced it. Perhaps that is a blind spot that someone should shine a light on, and perhaps you are the one to do it.
Genuinely, we would like to see you show us that A/W IC is a serious option for our cars - start that build thread, and we will follow your progress with interest.
So you're going to buy a water pump, reservoir, heat exchanger, metal, wiring components, and a air/water intercooler, then cut a hole in your bumper, mount the heat exchanger, pump, reservoir, and intercooler, plumb it, and wire it?
All because buying an air/air intercooler, mounting it, and fabricating some intercooler pipes is too complicated? See how much shorter the bolded sentences are?
Factory cars are using air/water, but the coolers are as big as the radiator, and they also want to maintain warmer air temps for emissions, and they have PDMs which allow the pump to remain on even after the key is off, to cool it after shut down. It's not an ideal performance application.
But really, if you're gonna do something totally silly, at least do something cool like figure out how to implement the heat exchanger for the a/c system and get sub-zero ic temps.
Your idea of using just a heater core mounted up front as the heat exchanger for the system is not going to be sufficient. On my CTS-V (which is a factory air to water system), while yes it does produce more heat in the charge air, the heat exchanger is nearly the same size as the radiator and nearly twice as thick. It's like having two radiators mounted in the front of the car and even then it needs the thermal mass of having an 8 gallon tank of water in the trunk in order to not let charge temps run away during a single quarter mile pass.
Going to an air to water system to avoid having to make intercooler pipes is asinine. The level of complexity you're adding has already been described by others here, air to air is cheaper, simpler, and usually works better as well.
I think what I was trying to say has been misinterpreted. I meant a simpler and better package as a whole. Not simpler to install. I have no problem with fab work. I've installed multiple front mounts on multiple cars... everything from a simple 240 sr20 swap to pro mod turbo set ups. I use to work at a race car manufacturer shop. My plan is a sub 201 hp 1.8l build so it's questionable if I even need an intercooler to begin with considering this is not going to be a track car.
I understand that a ctsv has a rather large air to water intercooler. But your trying to cool 6 liters of air (not counting the multipled atmospheric pressure created by your compressor of choice), vs trying to cool 1.8 liters. So some simple rough math would indicate i would need a intercooler that's less then a third the size of your cts-v... and that's assuming we are running that same air flow volume rates per liter.
I kinda feel as though it's one of those deals of "well we always did it this way so why not keep doing it that way".
Going to be starting a build thread sometime soon. I'm still in the planning stage so nothing is purchased as of yet.
Edit: also Im not doing this to be cheap... I could do a front mount for $120 out the door. The pump alone is going to be $100 by itself for the build im proposing.
I kinda feel as though it's one of those deals of "well we always did it this way so why not keep doing it that way".
No, you are not listening.
The "deal" is that experts on this vehicle are saying "We do it this way because we have years of experience following a successful recipe".
You're coming up with ideas that have no chance of working, aren't listening when told why it won't work, and are presenting well-known influencer clickbait as if it was novel and thorough.
This is not the process for being an innovator. It's the process for wasting a lot of time and money to get a terrible result or no results at all.
If you want to innovate, first you have to be extremely good at achieving the baseline goal. Then you use your creativity and special insights to come up with something that exceeds the norm. On a well-understood system like a turbo Miata, the chances of you coming up with a new and successful idea without a deep understanding of the current state-of-the-art is slim to none.
If you're saying you don't need an intercooler at all to make 200hp with a BP because you won't be tracking it, you do not understand.
I think what I was trying to say has been misinterpreted. I meant a simpler and better package as a whole. Not simpler to install. I have no problem with fab work. I've installed multiple front mounts on multiple cars... everything from a simple 240 sr20 swap to pro mod turbo set ups. I use to work at a race car manufacturer shop. My plan is a sub 201 hp 1.8l build so it's questionable if I even need an intercooler to begin with considering this is not going to be a track car.
I understand that a ctsv has a rather large air to water intercooler. But your trying to cool 6 liters of air (not counting the multipled atmospheric pressure created by your compressor of choice), vs trying to cool 1.8 liters. So some simple rough math would indicate i would need a intercooler that's less then a third the size of your cts-v... and that's assuming we are running that same air flow volume rates per liter.
I kinda feel as though it's one of those deals of "well we always did it this way so why not keep doing it that way".
Going to be starting a build thread sometime soon. I'm still in the planning stage so nothing is purchased as of yet.
Edit: also Im not doing this to be cheap... I could do a front mount for $120 out the door. The pump alone is going to be $100 by itself for the build im proposing.
You've surpassed just being someone who had an idea and wanted feedback and have made it across the threshold of being someone who only wanted to hear that their idea is good because they're likely going to do it anyway.
You should definitely reject all of this information being given to you and go through with this and post the results for our entertainment now.
Also, getting a $100 intercooler pump is being cheap, not sure where you would get that, maybe at the pet store in the fish tank section? All of the pumps that people upgrade to in water to air applications are like $400+.
Dont bother with a/w for your application and power level. Most oem vehicles that use a/w do it for packaging purposes for blower setups.
The major benefit for a/w over a/a is on serious drag applications that can use an Ice box. On some big boost drag setups the compressor outlet temperature can exceed 400f, and sometimes by a LOT!!! The big advantage on those very specific applications is the a/w exchanger can be supercooled right before the run and due to the large thermal mass of all the supercooled liquid (maybe even ice slurry or a combination of dry Ice) and the mass of the now supercooled exchanger it can cool that 400+ turbo outlet to something reasonable without a huge increase in temps in the 5 seconds or so at full boost for the run, but since you've worked on turbo pro mods you know this already.
It can often even be a wash between the improved efficiency even when supercooled due to the extra weight over a simple a/a.
I know someone personally who runs a record setting 300zx who ran an ice box before and now runs an a/a since he has a sponsor now and that is what they wanted. I'm pretty sure he is running very similar numbers with the a/a setup.
Yeah, have a cat for the (promised) build thread. I appreciate a contrarian who is prepared to back his opinions. Especially one who will back them with cash, and document the process.
I really hope you do this, because it will 99.9% probably validate the reasons the Beerbaron gave for preferring the A/A setup, then we will have some documented recent experience of one who is prepared to spend on good quality components. To keep things balanced I gave BB a cat too!!
Water to air intercoolers are almost all new car's Achilles heel when used on track because they heat soak - usually not if - when. My friend ran one on a turbocharged car, played with it for years increasing reservoirs, different pump rates etc etc. Finally changed - put a high quality air to air cooler in and it was simpler and performed better.
With only 200hp target, the potential weight disadvantage and complexity of WA makes little sense over A-A. More load on electrical system etc.
Bleeding the water side can be a PITA. Sticking a head of water high up in the bay for bleeding is not great.
Have OEMs moved to water to air - yes many have. I think the main reason is packaging then response - short intake, low volume intake, avoid high humidity issues, work with superchargers and hot V turbo layouts, place heat exchangers where they want to work with aerodynamics and fuel efficiency.
If you just want to do it - crack on and report back on everything - don't look for approval from internet strangers.
The "deal" is that experts on this vehicle are saying "We do it this way because we have years of experience following a successful recipe".
You're coming up with ideas that have no chance of working, aren't listening when told why it won't work, and are presenting well-known influencer clickbait as if it was novel and thorough.
This is not the process for being an innovator. It's the process for wasting a lot of time and money to get a terrible result or no results at all.
If you want to innovate, first you have to be extremely good at achieving the baseline goal. Then you use your creativity and special insights to come up with something that exceeds the norm. On a well-understood system like a turbo Miata, the chances of you coming up with a new and successful idea without a deep understanding of the current state-of-the-art is slim to none.
If you're saying you don't need an intercooler at all to make 200hp with a BP because you won't be tracking it, you do not understand.
Originally Posted by Arca_ex
You've surpassed just being someone who had an idea and wanted feedback and have made it across the threshold of being someone who only wanted to hear that their idea is good because they're likely going to do it anyway.
You should definitely reject all of this information being given to you and go through with this and post the results for our entertainment now.
Also, getting a $100 intercooler pump is being cheap, not sure where you would get that, maybe at the pet store in the fish tank section? All of the pumps that people upgrade to in water to air applications are like $400+.
These are some astoundingly head-up-own-*** takes. It's not the 1990s anymore. The application of awics is thoroughly documented, all teething pains have been accounted for, and extensive support in the aftermarket has been developed. The advantages, and disadvantages, are well known. Just because the op isn't intimately familiar with them, doesn't mean nobody is. And just because the Miata community hasn't embraced them doesn't mean there aren't benefits. Although most of those benefits are hard to realize when the built up bps can only really make as much power as a factory new 4-cylinder motors with a tune.
as far as "rejecting all the information given", no real info has been given in this thread besides the link to the YouTube video. Everything else is just everyone berating the op with their own self aggrandized ignorance.
Regarding the $400 pump, Arca, you do realize that pump is an upgrade for the v-platforms because gm built the pump control electronics into the pump itself, right? And the reflecting price doesn't have much to do with the physical design of the pump itself. And you're aware the Davies Craig ebp line of pumps exist and more than capable for any street awic setup; the the ebp40 at $200 can support 800whp worth of coolant flow - hell the bosh cobra pumps can handle over 300whp and they're like $40 now ? And you know that most big gp drag racers still use cheap Rule boat bilge pumps for that setup, right?
I'm assuming y'all aren't 14 years old anymore. So acting like it
These are some astoundingly head-up-own-*** takes. It's not the 1990s anymore. The application of awics is thoroughly documented, all teething pains have been accounted for, and extensive support in the aftermarket has been developed. The advantages, and disadvantages, are well known. Just because the op isn't intimately familiar with them, doesn't mean nobody is. And just because the Miata community hasn't embraced them doesn't mean there aren't benefits. Although most of those benefits are hard to realize when the built up bps can only really make as much power as a factory new 4-cylinder motors with a tune.
as far as "rejecting all the information given", no real info has been given in this thread besides the link to the YouTube video. Everything else is just everyone berating the op with their own self aggrandized ignorance.
Regarding the $400 pump, Arca, you do realize that pump is an upgrade for the v-platforms because gm built the pump control electronics into the pump itself, right? And the reflecting price doesn't have much to do with the physical design of the pump itself. And you're aware the Davies Craig ebp line of pumps exist and more than capable for any street awic setup; the the ebp40 at $200 can support 800whp worth of coolant flow - hell the bosh cobra pumps can handle over 300whp and they're like $40 now ? And you know that most big gp drag racers still use cheap Rule boat bilge pumps for that setup, right?
I'm assuming y'all aren't 14 years old anymore. So acting like it
A significant number on here do know what they are talking about. I'm almost 58 now and been involved with drag racing in one way or another since I was 17. A/w vs a/a benefits vary per application. For what the op mentioned, my view and many others dont think its worth the effort for him.
I am EXTREMELY familiar with a/w setups that also use ice boxes. As I said in an earlier post, One person I know personally ran both on a former world record holding 300zx. In fact i've known his now father in law for almost 30 years. I've been badly smoked at the track by him with both the a/w and a/a setup LOL.....He ran an a/w setup with an ice box and recently switched back to a/a. his times are very similar to what he ran with a/w. I was actually considering doing an a/w and ice box setup until seeing him run basically the numbers with the a/a. If my local track was a 1/4 mile and not 1/8th mile I would lean towards swapping to a/w and Ice box, but for 1/8th mile the large a/a has enough thermal mass and at a reasonable pressure drop to keep temps in check for a 6 second run. Keep in mind my peak compressor outlet temps are likely 425f+ on a 80f ambient day at my boost level of 36-37psi.
So if the above practical example of why I suggested he not bother is not good enough reasoning I will get more into the logic why I would still suggest a/a for him at his level.
The op mentioned his power level goal of 180-200hp. that would likely take around 9ish psi or so to get to his goal with the turbo size he mentioned. On a 70f ambient day the would put his compressor outlet temps of roughly 200f peak if he has a well designed pre turbo intake so as to not capture heated under hood air and assuming roughly 80f air going into turbo on that 70f ambient day. A large well designed and open to forced cooling ambient (while at speed) air/air could be as much as 80% efficient. An a/w front exchanger and open to cooling air may be as much as 85-90% efficient and the actual exchanger core in the intake tract may be 80-85% efficient. In such a scenario the a/a would likely ultimately be superior to the a/w setup in terms of actual air temps going into engine. That is not factoring in an ice box. An ice box changes things to favor an a/w setup in terms of power and possibly significantly lower than ambient temps, but that is only applicable to drag racing. The op didnt mention he was drag racing, and given his power level its not likely he wants to. Actually many big power turbo drag cars nowadays ditch the intercooler altogether and run m1 which takes care of charge cooling.
However all that being said, it's his car and he can build as he sees fit. I've certainly gone against the grain on many occasions. Sometimes it works out better than anticipated. Experimentation and testing is one of the things that makes being a gearhead fun after all!
09-22-2023, 10:59 PM
Air to water intercooler
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