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Old 02-10-2011, 02:10 AM   #1
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Default First Time booster considering 16g

Ive read the diy turbo faq and now have a couple of questions.

I am currently in possession of a 99 that is completely stock. The previous owner was kind of an *** to the car, but I must admit I was suckered in by the the fact of owning a rwd car (granted the toyo proxes 4's weren't a bad touch).

My goal is to build a decent daily driver with some get up and go. I dont plan to break the 300rwhp barrier (at least not yet, maybe far down the road), and frankly until I'm in the Air Force, I plan to make this a budget build. I'm going to be running the stock clutch, stock injectors, and a greddy emanage blue (used and bought for 170 ) to start off with. I will definitely upgrade parts as I go though.

Im currently in contact with the a gentleman who is selling a 16g (rebuilt td05h housing), 1.8 tubular manifold, intake piping, intercooler, bov (not sure which one but guessing by the turbine I'd speculate its of dsm origin), divorced gas downpipe, and new fittings/banjo bolts for the water lines. Granted this is all for 300 as he is trying to sell it after getting rid of his miata.

my goals for now are to merely run around 6-8 psi (hopefully low enough not to worry about clutch slippage, yet high enough to gain respectable hp), and with future modifications a final goal of around 260rwhp. I'm in colorado so granted boost levels will gauge differently than sea level. I also have a good friend of mine (a diesel tech/tuner) who will assist in the installation and tuning of said set up. I would be hesitant at first to enlist his help due to his lack of knowledge in standard efi, but with his recent conquest of paxton charging a viper to the tune of 739rwhp (or his upwards of a 1,000 bhp diesel truck), I believe he could have some insight. Not to mention his desire to the see the "little girls car" spank hondas yields a labor for peanuts mentality.

My questions are as follows:

a.with a 16g can 6-8psi yield hp in the ranges of 160rwhp-180rwhp? (I am unable to source a dyno chart of someone with a similar set up so I at lost as to what my boost/rpm levels will yield. I am familiar that the evo3 16g {dsm friends as source of info} does yield significantly higher cfm flow than a standard dsm t25, so I know 6-8 could yield more hp and thus clutch slippage)

b. With a greddy emanage, narrowband (I am familiar that a narrowband is crap for a precise tune but humor me here on the idea that Ill be enrichening the fuel mixture to compensate and build a larger margin of error) and a road tune could I get a safe tune for the 16g on my 1.8? I plan to dyno tune later once funds are more readily available, but at the current moment the focus is on homebrew/grassroots/budget build.

c. sadly I am not familiar as to what a 16g td05h's internal wastegate is rated at, could someone inform me? If it is at 6psi, I would easily fore go the mbc for now.

d. considering the cfm flow of the 16g and the adequate fuel needed in response, will my mpg see a significant drop or will it remain within the same relative ball park of 26-32mpg?

e. (if someone could supply a dyno chart or spool map of a similar setup that would be incredibly helpful) At what rpm ranges would I see: peak torque/peak power/beginning of spool/full boost?
I understand that with my budget limitations I cant expect the stars, and indeed I do not. I promise I am not attempting to as one would say GAIN MAD HORSEPOWERZ YO!!!, but instead build a decent daily driver with a bit of a weekend track warrior spirit in reserve. With time modifications such as a mazdaspeed clutch, a lightened flywheel, wideband o2 sensor, and a diypnp will find there way into the mix, but at the current moment I am limited. I hope with that in mind you will show me a bit of reserve in regards to your flames and see me as for what I truely am, a guy who wants to have a blast with his new favorite rwd roadster and whose knowledge of forced induction is quite limited. goodnight and goodluck.

Last edited by s0n1cm0nk3y; 02-10-2011 at 10:44 AM.
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Old 02-10-2011, 03:30 AM   #2
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A. I don't see a question, but if your making more than 150whp, expect to put in a new clutch. People swear by ACT or FM clutches on this site.

B. Narrowband is useless, it would be wise to install your ECU\wideband and get it running properly before the turbo install. Changing too many things at once can lead to major headaches.

C. What the wastegate is rated at isn't always what PSI you will be seeing at the IM. IC pressure drop, charge piping length, and other variables will affect the PSI reading. It shouldn't be too far off though. No clue what the rating is for the wastegate your asking about.

D. Depends on the tune and how heavy your right foot is. You can cruise pretty lean, I'm pretty sure most guys with DD turbo miatas on here see anywhere from 20-30 mpg on average.

E. You should see full boost by 4k rpm on a DD turbo car or it's pointless, unless your making over 300whp. A 3 inch exhaust will help a ton with spool time.

Keep reading on here and you will learn a lot. Take your time and do it right the first time around. Don't skimp where it counts. Plus, we (as a forum) are probably the coolest mother ******* on the planet.

xoxo,

Bonder
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Old 02-10-2011, 03:57 AM   #3
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DSM turbos are where it's at. SUP BRO?!
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Old 02-10-2011, 11:14 AM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bond View Post
A. I don't see a question, but if your making more than 150whp, expect to put in a new clutch. People swear by ACT or FM clutches on this site.

B. Narrowband is useless, it would be wise to install your ECU\wideband and get it running properly before the turbo install. Changing too many things at once can lead to major headaches.

C. What the wastegate is rated at isn't always what PSI you will be seeing at the IM. IC pressure drop, charge piping length, and other variables will affect the PSI reading. It shouldn't be too far off though. No clue what the rating is for the wastegate your asking about.

D. Depends on the tune and how heavy your right foot is. You can cruise pretty lean, I'm pretty sure most guys with DD turbo miatas on here see anywhere from 20-30 mpg on average.

E. You should see full boost by 4k rpm on a DD turbo car or it's pointless, unless your making over 300whp. A 3 inch exhaust will help a ton with spool time.

Keep reading on here and you will learn a lot. Take your time and do it right the first time around. Don't skimp where it counts. Plus, we (as a forum) are probably the coolest mother ******* on the planet.

xoxo,

Bonder
a. sorry forgot the question mark = fixed. Also glad to hear that 150whp is my clutch slip barrier. 150whp should be enough to show a moderate improvement over stock. I'm pretty sure I'm only making in the neighborhood of 90-100whp at the moment.

b.my plan is to over time do the install process. A wideband o2 sensor could find its way into the mix soon as well, but first of all I would install the emanage and get used to its tuning capabilities.

c. I am considering in those factors in hopes that it drops my psi enough to prevent clutch slippage. Granted Im hoping it is high enough that I wont have to rely on a mbc to get the levels I am looking for.

e. I was curious if with the 16g would I see boost early, full boost at 4k sounds pretty reasonable though. My primary concern is the other possible points in my power band that I asked about before, peak torque especially.

Quote:
DSM turbos are where it's at. SUP BRO?!
Lol,where its at eh? Im familiar that the 16g is an impressive turbo in regards to its capabilities in comparison to other turbos. also Ive heard the same with the 14b for those who are looking for a quick spool.
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Old 02-10-2011, 11:18 AM   #5
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20gs.
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Old 02-10-2011, 12:43 PM   #6
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I had the 14b on my '94 and I loved it! I was pushing its limits at 200whp, but I heard the 16g evo should have similar spool with more headroom.
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Old 02-10-2011, 01:00 PM   #7
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I'm slightly concerned at the no-name tubular manifold and downpipe that he is selling for 300 dollars. Chances are it's a piece of **** that will crack endlessly, and will wind up being more trouble than it's worth.
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Old 02-10-2011, 01:08 PM   #8
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Howdy, you in the CoSPgs area? I saw that Craigslist ad for the turbo setup the other day...looked like it could be a good starting point. I'll be running an Evo3 16g on my '92, in the next few months with any luck. What shop is your friend with?

I had an E316g on my Talon and I hit full spool by about 3300rpm with an open exhaust, but it ran out of steam by about 6K on stock cams and in/ex manifolds. I'm hoping that it'll be at full steam by the high 3K's on my 1.6L, but won't die by redline. Stock wastegate pressure on the E316g is 11-12psi, and I'm pretty sure it's the same across the board for all 16g turbos.

I tuned my Talon for a couple of years by logging timing, ariflow, and rpm, with only an SAFC and fuel pressure...no wideband. If you are safe and conservative then you'll probably be OK without a wbo2 if you have some way of monitoring the above parameters. That being said, I'll never run a FI car without one again, and it was one of the first things I bought for my Miata.

Last edited by matthewdesigns; 02-10-2011 at 01:42 PM.
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Old 02-10-2011, 01:20 PM   #9
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Ditch the shitty tires..you'll thank me when you do.
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Old 02-10-2011, 01:38 PM   #10
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Quote:
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Ditch the shitty tires..you'll thank me when you do.
His friends took this advice and they are still thanking him!
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Old 02-10-2011, 02:46 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bond View Post
A. I don't see a question, but if your making more than 150whp, expect to put in a new clutch. People swear by ACT or FM clutches on this site.

B. Narrowband is useless, it would be wise to install your ECU\wideband and get it running properly before the turbo install. Changing too many things at once can lead to major headaches.

C. What the wastegate is rated at isn't always what PSI you will be seeing at the IM. IC pressure drop, charge piping length, and other variables will affect the PSI reading. It shouldn't be too far off though. No clue what the rating is for the wastegate your asking about.

D. Depends on the tune and how heavy your right foot is. You can cruise pretty lean, I'm pretty sure most guys with DD turbo miatas on here see anywhere from 20-30 mpg on average.

E. You should see full boost by 4k rpm on a DD turbo car or it's pointless, unless your making over 300whp. A 3 inch exhaust will help a ton with spool time.

Keep reading on here and you will learn a lot. Take your time and do it right the first time around. Don't skimp where it counts. Plus, we (as a forum) are probably the coolest mother ******* on the planet.

xoxo,

Bonder
+1 THIS. All of it. Especially letter "B". You are not ready for the turbo until you can afford and install the wideband. I don't consider that a negotiable point just like Bond doesn't. If you don't have the wideband you aren't ready for the turbo. It's around $200. If you can't afford it you have no business putting a turbo on your car. A turbo is going to give you a whole laundry list of things to spend money on both during the install and after it is up and running. If you are not ready for that, your car will be down and you will be waiting for the next paycheck or two to get going again. Not trying to dash your dreams but trying to add some useful perspective. Is anyone else here willing to give me an "amen" on this point?
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Old 02-10-2011, 02:50 PM   #12
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I was surprised with how quickly my 1.6 would spool my BIG 16g. It's pretty impressive.
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Old 02-10-2011, 06:28 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by matthewdesigns View Post
Howdy, you in the CoSPgs area? I saw that Craigslist ad for the turbo setup the other day...looked like it could be a good starting point. I'll be running an Evo3 16g on my '92, in the next few months with any luck. What shop is your friend with?

I had an E316g on my Talon and I hit full spool by about 3300rpm with an open exhaust, but it ran out of steam by about 6K on stock cams and in/ex manifolds. I'm hoping that it'll be at full steam by the high 3K's on my 1.6L, but won't die by redline. Stock wastegate pressure on the E316g is 11-12psi, and I'm pretty sure it's the same across the board for all 16g turbos.

I tuned my Talon for a couple of years by logging timing, ariflow, and rpm, with only an SAFC and fuel pressure...no wideband. If you are safe and conservative then you'll probably be OK without a wbo2 if you have some way of monitoring the above parameters. That being said, I'll never run a FI car without one again, and it was one of the first things I bought for my Miata.

hmmm, if the pressure is around that then maybe I should hold off for a little.

Quote:
+1 THIS. All of it. Especially letter "B". You are not ready for the turbo until you can afford and install the wideband. I don't consider that a negotiable point just like Bond doesn't. If you don't have the wideband you aren't ready for the turbo. It's around $200. If you can't afford it you have no business putting a turbo on your car. A turbo is going to give you a whole laundry list of things to spend money on both during the install and after it is up and running. If you are not ready for that, your car will be down and you will be waiting for the next paycheck or two to get going again. Not trying to dash your dreams but trying to add some useful perspective. Is anyone else here willing to give me an "amen" on this point?
I can understand. As for monetary means once Im in the Air Force Ill have better luck with affording and adding said parts. To be honest part of my consideration atm is to do the necessary n/a modifications that I want (chassis and suspension rigidity) and then once in using the amount I'll have left over after basic to buy a begi-s kit along with install the emanage (though part of me has the itch to install the emanage and see what I can get out of n/a tuning, but Im also considering selling the emanage for a diypnp with a miata basemap). Then following afterwards when I get my first military tax return, doing the 1.8 built internals kit.

I do have a bit more curiousity in that regard now. With the begi s kit I am considering (http://www.bellengineering.net/produ...roducts_id=244), is a fuel management required to run the stock 5-6 psi? granted with a correct engine management system the psi will see an increase, I see no information as to whether 5-6psi requires a management system.
---
to be honest, I want to go turbo but I think I'll wait for a while. I think getting the yata stanced and sticking the way I want right now is probably the best idea rather than trying to snag up a sale.

Last edited by s0n1cm0nk3y; 02-10-2011 at 06:41 PM.
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Old 02-10-2011, 07:28 PM   #14
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I like seeing that you have been here 10 months and only just posted now. Its a good start. As has been said above,
-careful with the cheap manifold
-you HAVE to have a wideband, you just cant tune without it unless your a pro oldschool carby tuner from the 50's, even then it wont be near as good or safe.
-Get a new clutch

Dann

PS, amen..
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Old 02-11-2011, 01:52 AM   #15
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I run the evo III 16g. it will spool early and you should be able to see 6 or 7 pounds by 3k. I see that on my 1.6 easily and it doesn't run out of steam even at 14lbs of boost. if you realy want to make it spool fast a 3" exhaust does wonders even over a 2.5"

your clutch won't be safe at any boost level, sorry it's just the way it goes.

my turbo came with a 14lb waste gate actuator. you can source something lower pretty easily. do yourself a favor and contact http://gpopshop.com/ and source a rebuild kit. it will take half an hour to do and will be well worth the time spent.

+1 on the wideband of course, and ditch those stock injectors or raise the fuel pressure.

if it is a cheap mani learn to weld. they will crack and crack again over and over and over until you finaly get sick of it and build something nice and thick.

all in all it's a very nice turbo for our cars and should be able to do all you want and then some.

now the cons:
1)it has a goofy compressor outlet that takes a goofy two bolt flange. that can be a pain in the ***. I had to clock mine and route **** all kinds of funky. but I had ac and power steering when I made my charge pipes.

2)the mani flange is a ****** pain in the *** as it was designed for the DSM manifold and the bolt holes in the turbo are threaded so you can forget about using studs. as only one bolt hole doesn't end up hidden in the middle of the casting.
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Old 02-17-2011, 02:08 PM   #16
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w00t, ship date is now may 10th, looks like this girl will get boosted soon! I've moved my thoughts over to begi and there kits. Considering I wont be boosting to high at first (probably enough to hit 180rwhp and then with more supporting mods for 220-250rwhp), is it safe to use stock injectors with MS diyPNP? Also considering Im not sure where they'll land me (first boosted yata in guam?) anyone here good at doing over the web tunes (looking at my logs and tuning from there)?
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Old 02-17-2011, 10:41 PM   #17
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web tunes arent like real tunes, find someone close on the forum in the MSpnp section, you will need a new clutch and at least 470cc injectors.

Dann
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Old 02-18-2011, 02:28 AM   #18
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Dude if you get shipped to Guam leave the car here and buy a bicycle. That island is only 30x4miles.
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Old 02-18-2011, 09:33 AM   #19
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Omg buy a clutch and leave the car stateside pile up cash and then when u return finish the car. You might as well pull the motor and tranny etc and clean everything while you do the clutch and tap your oil pan. This will give you a nice and, even start for the car as a whole if you just half *** this car together expect half *** results and probably alot of breakage.
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Old 02-18-2011, 10:04 AM   #20
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I think there is already a guy on the forum in Guam.

Stock injectors will not be adequate with any boost imo. Even the RRFPR guys typically use larger injectors.

Last edited by sixshooter; 02-18-2011 at 10:16 AM.
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