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Old 07-12-2015, 01:59 PM   #1
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Default MSM Swap questions

Hey all,

This is a new/different project that my friend and I are tackling and I have a few questions. So the history of this project is this; he bought a wrecked 2004 MSM with low miles for a steal. Then we found a 91 that is a pretty solid car that wouldn't pass smog, picked it up for $700. Now, this will be a track only car so the plan is to run the fuel and spark with a MS, keep the stock ECU in to do everything else. I recommended we do a nice upgraded turbo kit on it, but I'm not trying to take a bunch of funds away from my V8 build and he doesn't have the coin to buy a new kit. So for now, we will use what we have.

This is where I get stumped;
-Since the plan is to run a MS, do we stick with the 1.8 throttle body?
-I noticed there is a trigger wheel on the crank, will we be using that for the MS?
-Its not a VVT, but it has the butterflys in the intake, should those be gutted?
-What do we do for the fuel system being we are now going to a returnless fuel rail?

Basically all we need on the engine for the MS is IAT sensor, CLT sensor, MAP sensor, trigger wheels for fuel and spark, right?

The physical swap is almost complete, I just don't know what to do with the ECU.

Thanks!
Ryan
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Old 07-12-2015, 02:07 PM   #2
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A lot of things depend on if you will use a ms for a 1.6 or get one for an msm/nb, but:
-yes
-yes
-yes, or get a VICS manifold from me
-it is 200% better to get away from the crappy return-less, so if you can, do it.
Use the stock NB2 trigger wheels/setup, it will probably be simpler/easier. Although if you have or get a ms for a 1.6, you can just set it up using the CAS.

Look at greddygalant's "project lazarous". he's done EXACTLY what you're doing and documented the whole thing. EZ-PZ
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Old 07-12-2015, 02:17 PM   #3
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Awesome, thanks for the reply Vlad!

I told him I would look into what needs to be done and I had been kind of slacking on doing that. I will go through his build thread and so what I can learn.

Is the VICs manifold what the MSM came with or is yours already gutted?
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Old 07-12-2015, 02:27 PM   #4
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msm comes with the crappy vtcs. it kills performance pretty significantly
vics is on the 99-00, and has the cool resonance chamber vs the stupid tumble valve butterflies.

although I have both and would sell you either or both for really cheap (I have them listed in the classifieds) if you wanted to experiment
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Old 07-12-2015, 02:36 PM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RyanRaduechel View Post
Now, this will be a track only car so the plan is to run the fuel and spark with a MS, keep the stock ECU in to do everything else.
Since it's a track car built on a 1.6 chassis, what else matters aside from spark and fuel? You're gonna have to hack the tachometer anyway since the ECU didn't control that on the 1.6 instrument cluster, and you're gonna have to hack the alternator control (if you keep the stock MSM alternator) since the 1.6 ECU can't run that either, and that leaves... idle?

If it were me, I'd ditch the stock ECU entirely. Keeping it will add complexity. Buy an MS3, run everything with it (including the tach and the alternator) and you'll be much happier.

Quote:
-Since the plan is to run a MS, do we stick with the 1.8 throttle body?
Absolutely. Stick with literally every single stock part that came with the MSM engine aside from the intercooler and the plumbing upstream of the compressor.


Quote:
-I noticed there is a trigger wheel on the crank, will we be using that for the MS?
Yes, in conjunction with the cam sensor on the front of the intake cam. With those two wired to the MS, you won't need the 1.6 CAS.


Quote:
-Its not a VVT, but it has the butterflys in the intake, should those be gutted?
Yes. Pull out the shaft and plug the holes. Emilio has a whole thread on this right now.


Quote:
-What do we do for the fuel system being we are now going to a returnless fuel rail?
Remove the pulse damper from the rail, and install a regulator from a return-style car. I believe that the '94'97 FPR will fit, but I've never had to do this particular mod.



Quote:
Basically all we need on the engine for the MS is IAT sensor, CLT sensor, MAP sensor, trigger wheels for fuel and spark, right?
Need?

You don't want to re-use the stock MSM MAP sensor. Use the one in the MS. I'd personally keep the alternator, as well as the injectors, the ignition coils, the idle valve, etc.
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Old 07-12-2015, 02:41 PM   #6
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Joe is right. MS3 for the win. Also agreed on the last part except for the injectors part, since the stockers will be completely maxed out even at 10psi.
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Old 07-12-2015, 02:57 PM   #7
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Joe is right. MS3 for the win. Also agreed on the last part except for the injectors part, since the stockers will be completely maxed out even at 10psi.
Fair enough- if you're shooting for "all the power," then a set of new injectors is called for.

Opinions here as as varied as taste in music. The broad consensus amongst the intelligentsia seems at present to lean in favor of the Injector Dynamics ID1000. They are slightly pricey, however they do in fact seem to be made from a unique blend of sintered unicorn horn and hater tears which yields a stock-like idle while still permitting a higher specific output than most nuclear weapons.
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Old 11-28-2015, 10:32 PM   #8
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Digging up bones with this one. Finally started working on this car again. So we ended up buying a MS3x so we can run sequential fuel and spark. I am currently laying out the wiring looms for the MS. I am looking at the generic external wiring diagram that came with the ecu and it was a wiring for a stepper IAC or a PWM idle valve.

Which will I be using for the idle valve?

Joe, I read your post about the 1.6 alternator, at this point would it still be easier to put a 1.6 alternator in it?

Last question, how will I wore both the cam sensor and the crank sensor? Is one a VR while the other is a Hall effect?

Sorry for the (b)noob questions, this is above my experiences.

Thank you!
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Old 11-29-2015, 03:46 PM   #9
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All Miatas have PWM idle valves. Both cam/crank sensors are Hall sensors (basically - not strictly true, but that's the answer you need).

Wire the car per my VVT swap megathread. MSM motors are basically BP4W setups, so most of the wiring is the same. Doing it any other way just adds a bunch of needless complexity.

https://www.miataturbo.net/engine-pe...athread-80469/
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Old 11-29-2015, 09:19 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe Perez View Post
Since it's a track car built on a 1.6 chassis, what else matters aside from spark and fuel? You're gonna have to hack the tachometer anyway since the ECU didn't control that on the 1.6 instrument cluster, and you're gonna have to hack the alternator control (if you keep the stock MSM alternator) since the 1.6 ECU can't run that either, and that leaves... idle?

If it were me, I'd ditch the stock ECU entirely. Keeping it will add complexity. Buy an MS3, run everything with it (including the tach and the alternator) and you'll be much happier.

Absolutely. Stick with literally every single stock part that came with the MSM engine aside from the intercooler and the plumbing upstream of the compressor.


Yes, in conjunction with the cam sensor on the front of the intake cam. With those two wired to the MS, you won't need the 1.6 CAS.


Yes. Pull out the shaft and plug the holes. Emilio has a whole thread on this right now.


Remove the pulse damper from the rail, and install a regulator from a return-style car. I believe that the '94'97 FPR will fit, but I've never had to do this particular mod.



Need?

You don't want to re-use the stock MSM MAP sensor. Use the one in the MS. I'd personally keep the alternator, as well as the injectors, the ignition coils, the idle valve, etc.
Link please Joe I can't find it. I thought taking the butterlies out changed the mid range torque for the worse

Last edited by jmann; 11-30-2015 at 12:16 AM.
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Old 11-30-2015, 12:20 AM   #11
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Sorry about the quote copy above, I am wondering where to find the Emillio thread on removing the butterflies from the intake.
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Old 11-30-2015, 01:22 PM   #12
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Quote:
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Link please Joe I can't find it. I thought taking the butterlies out changed the mid range torque for the worse
He's not talking about a VICS manifold, he's talking about the 01-05 VTCS manifold
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Old 11-30-2015, 02:02 PM   #13
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Thanks Andrew
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