technicalninja

This is where I'm gonna lose some of my kittens... maybe all of them
OK I haven't done enough research regarding turbo selection.
I've been too busy doing basic research and Megasquirt research. I've spent hours reading posts and have not been worried about which turbo at all
It's too early...
But I have a likely prospect and I would like input from my forum members
I am building a 2018 GRM challenge car. It will be boosted, seriously boosted.
Current build recipe
02 NB2 6spd 3.9 torsen
Chinese H-beams, stock pistons that I may TB coat. 10-1 compression ratio.
MS3X + knock control
LS3 coils
1000 cc injectors (maybe bigger)
High flow fuel system
Dedicated high pressure CAI
Might have no exhaust (through hood), might have 3" depends on if it's in the buget
Either running E85 only or the highest octane race fuel I can get (112-116). 90% sure E85. I would like to be able to run it on the street. Fuel costs are not included in buget
Strong used clutch.
Hoosier A7 autocross tires. One set of tires is budget free
15 x 6.5 wheels (not wide enough!)
May have drag slicks as well.
Car has to compete in an autocross and then a drag race. Proper turbos are different sizes for the individual events...
I need something in the middle between a T25G and a BW6758.
Turbo has to be CHEAP!
I was leaning towards a T3 as they are the most common. Which T3 is the question that I should have been researching....

What I have a line on is a .63 T3 from "speed daddy" (the company name alone is a turn off)

turbine: trim 73
inducer 65.5mm
exducer: 76mm
A/R .63
2.5 V band exhaust

compressor: trim 55
inducer 50.5
exducer 76MM
A/R .5

It's band new, it's cheap, it looks cheap...
It's 100 miles away...
I need a torquey autocross car, then I need a high power drag machine. I am shooting for sub 12 quarter mile times.
It does not have to last very long although I would like to do a proper TSE build up after the cheap ****. If I fry the pistons it's OK (just needs to be at the end of that 1/4 mile pass)
Should I pass and do more research.
Please Please don't beat me to death with a dipstick...
The figures are from the current owner.

shuiend

iTrader: (24)

I am not sure how you are going to get everything you want for less the $2018. I have ran numbers myself debating building a car and I know getting below that with all you want will be next to impossible. MS3X + knock control will run you over $600 itself, 1000cc injectors are another $500. You are at over half your budget without getting into things to actually make the car faster. You will need a roll bar or cage to run 1/4 mile times that quick. So unless you have the fab tools to make that yourself it will be another several hundred dollars for that.

Also not sure how you are fitting in doing rods in the motor in the cost. Figure rods at cheapest are $200 + $100 for bearings + $100 for new rings + gaskets.

technicalninja

Yes, budget is damn tight. Everything needs to be used/craigslist, out of dumpster. cheap
Some things don't count nowdays, Fuel - Liquids- stock brakes - safety equipment - 1 set (4) tires- balancer-flywheel.
After selling off stuff I will have 2 miatas to build 1 for free. Basic running 02 LS NB2 free, 99 parts car...
Mazda senior technician/ASE double master (auto/machinest) Best overall fab skills of anyone I know. Some areas I am weak in (and know it)
30+ years wrenching experience. 2400 sq foot shop, tool boxes weigh 3 tons.Tools worth more than a starter home.
Learn hyper-fast. Read at the speed of though. Type at the speed of a turtle.

Yes I know what I'm getting into and understand that Mr Murphy will be my co-pilot...
Working on purchasing a semi complete MS3X for cheap- might be a mistake.

Shuiend- your input is what I value the most, You are the cat daddy of T3 turbo knowledge, Your kit is a incredible value and if I was a beginner your kit is the way to go, nobody even gets close to the value of your stuff...
I would really appreciate your feelings regarding this turbo.

Because I've been building crap for 30 years I would not purchase a "kit" without building a motor first. I would like to go TSE6758 and I'm very interested in the upcoming intercooler from TSE.
TSE doesn't fit into a GRM car at all.
Craigslist crap does however.

concealer404

iTrader: (3)

You can only recoup up to half of car's purchase or half of budget (in this case $1009, whichever comes first).

As a past GRM $20xx competitor: No way no how is a turbo 6spd Miata with forged rods showing up to the Challenge.

ryansmoneypit

iTrader: (6)

case closed.

But now Im interested to see stuff you have fabbed up, because thats what I do. Any pics of past projects, big or small?

sixshooter

iTrader: (12)

That turbo won't spool if those sizes are right.

technicalninja

Thank you all for the replies.
I felt the same way. Basic A/R is incorrect on exhaust side.
When the time is right I will start a build thread on Ratt.
To those who are calling me out. Time will tell.
You can recoup 1/2 of the total budget or 1009 in 2018.
You can only recoup up to the purchase price of the car or parts car. You cannot "make" money with a parts car. I could not find anything stating you can only recoup 1/2. THAT would kill my chances.

"You may never recoup more than a part or car’s purchase price or fair market value (whichever value you listed on your budget sheet.) You may not list fair market value instead of purchase price on your budget unless you do not have a receipt from the purchase, or depreciation/appreciation has drastically affected the car or part’s value. Free parts must be known to and available to the public (eg. sitting in a ditch on the side of the road). “Free” parts given to you by a friend must be added to the budget at fair market value."

From Rules ? Grassroots Motorsports $2017 Challenge

I've got 1000 in my two cars now.
I've already sold 100 off of Ratt. Wind deflector that I "modded" for a customers MSM
It will be hard to get the rest of the purchase price out of Ratt as the car was a track toy and has been somewhat gutted. I'd rather keep the motor as it has 1/2 the mileage of the 99, higher compression, VVT etc...
I'll triple the purchase price of the 99 parts car on part sales.

The rods are a challenge. I've seen one set on this forum that sold for $150 and there is no way to tell if they were any good so I will have to get lucky.
I've re-used rings in the past, I've re-used bearings as well. (although not at this level of intensity) I would rather re-use factory stuff in good condition than put low quality parts in a engine...
I have more than 12 months to find all the "Keys" that I need.
Like I said in my first post I really wasn't looking for the turbo yet.
I'm hunting a cheap MS3- MS3X to get Ratt running now.
The plan now is to get Ratt running and do some auto-crossing this summer. It's been 2 decades since I've run and I will need more work than Ratt...
Thanks again.
Rick

x_25

For huting a cheap ecu, keep a sharp eye on clubroadster. They pop up there every once in a while well below market value. I got my working MS3x with adapter harness and iat for $460 to my door off there.

ridethecliche

iTrader: (2)

If this is for a challenge like this, doesn't it make sense to get an older ECU or get one of the newer miata ones that can be run and tuned through tuner studio?
The ECU isn't where you want to blow your money in a build like this, no? I mean I guess you can make a decision when you're getting close to the line and haven't found stuff.

SpartanSV

Decent idea if he's willing to give up VVT and run the 99 head. A MS1 is dirt cheap though, and it was good enough for hustler's track car and he was the king of throwing money at anything resembling a problem/inadequacy.

Leafy

iTrader: (1)

Cheap injector wise. You're best off setting a v8 set of takeout GT500 injectors and using all 8 of them, that would be the GRM thing to do.

ridethecliche

iTrader: (2)

Using all 8? Or selling 4 to make some money back and buying adapters?

Leafy

iTrader: (1)

Using all 8. The GT500 injectors are like 500 some odd cc EV14s so you need 2 per cylinder.

technicalninja

Wow, thought the thread was dead. Thanks for the replies
Leafy- staggered injectors is a good solution and a possibility but by the time you add in the extra rails/connectors/ fuel path it starts to get expensive. I would prefer the simplicity of only 4. Staggered injection can be difficult to tune as well. I bet the modern ECUs make this simple now.

My father (another car nut) has a 69 XKE that at one time ran 3 turbos and staggered injectors 2 per cylinder through ITBs. It also had port Nitrous (was never actually used). The complex set up never really worked properly and by the time Dad purchased the car it was on a single turbo with a simple XJ intake plenum with normal port injection. It ran well with this set up (at 300HP). The car was a POS, needed complete restoration, and was damned scary to drive with 300HP!
It could powder the skinny-*** Jaguar tires at pretty much any speed in any gear!
It was Jeff Hartman's car and was one of the chapters in his first edition "How to Tune and Modify Engine Management Systems" He has a new edition out and I have no idea if the car is in there now...
It did come with all the cool pieces. I've pictures of the stuff somewhere. I'll try to find them. Dad sold the drivetrain and turbo systems a few years back to another Jag enthusiast as he was going to fit an XJR engine in the 69.

I'm currently working on a set of used ID1000s that are really too expensive for the budget but worth what I will pay for them. They may not make the competition if I can find a more inexpensive solution with similar flow rates (and it may be 8 used ford injectors)
They might stay which will mean something else doesn't. I've always thought the "final" injectors for the expensive build (TSE stuff) would be the IDs

There is a good chance Shuiend is correct. I will run out of money before completion. If I was betting on this my money would side with him.

Even if I do not compete I will have an enjoyable car when I'm done. 200 torque will make the car enjoyable. but I want more...

Thanks again everyone. I haven't lost any kittens yet.
You all are kind
Rick

patsmx5

iTrader: (16)

An ebay 2860 is a cheap turbo I ran on my original compound setup. From my use I think it's good for 350whp and it hit full boost at 3,600, and was ebay cheap. Actually I still have it, it needs a rebuild but is otherwise fine. Hell given your cheap budget you might want it. But they are new on ebay for 168 I believe, and have an internal gate so you won't need an external gate to run it. This one: T25 GT25 GT28 GT2871 GT2871R GT2860 SR20 CA18DET OIL+ WATER COOLED TURBO CHARGER | eBay

I'll be following your build.

If you wanna go dirt cheap on the motor, I would take the healthy motor you have, and swap the rods, new head gasket, oil pan seals, cam/crank seals, new rings and hone cylinder. Reuse bearings/oil pump/everything else to save money. If it don't detonate, should take 300whp all day long.

technicalninja

Thanks Patrick, yes I probably want your old 2860. I've "rebuilt" a couple of T3s in the distant past that worked OK.
One of the better things I got with Ratt was a folder of receipts showing the original owners build up and he installed a timing belt kit and water pump with FM pieces 10k miles ago. Front seals are new.
The oil pan seals are damned expensive and I will try to save and reuse the old ones.
The balancer and the flywheel can be substituted for SFI approved pieces as long as the ones on the car are usable without affecting budget.
More research on which balancer is better will have to be done. I'm leaning 949 right now.
Sadly there is no room for studs anywhere and I may have to re-use head bolts.
3 times in my automotive career I have HAD to re-use a set of rings on a major repair. The reason has always been lack of available replacements at reasonable prices. No ones rings are worth $1400. Each time I worried that failure would result and all 3 instances worked fine for years. None were turbocharged. All were in reasonably good shape at inspection. I put every ring back in its original orientation after a medical level cleaning. Did not hone-just cleaned the bores. Worked far better than I expected.

Really, full boost at 3600? and 350?? That will work fine.
My wife has family down in Houston, maybe we need to visit them...
It's too bad you sold that head-gasket you had. It was on my radar
Thanks
Rick

patsmx5

iTrader: (16)

Depends where you define full boost. At the time, it was 13 PSI @ 3,600 IIRC. Virtual dyno of more boost below to get a better idea.

technicalninja

When YOU said full boost at 3600 my first through was NO WAY Pats hitting 30 psi at 3600 on this. 13psi is plenty!
For the autocross I was tentatively setting my boost target low; like 8-10 psi. For the drag race it will depend on the status of the motor. If I can swing H-beams it will be much higher than If I cannot. Maybe 20+ with rods. Below 15 without.
That curve looks FAT and is at low RPM. Yes, that appears to be the turbo for me.
Was this a run with your compound set up or just the 2860 itself?
Thanks for your input once again.
Rick

patsmx5

iTrader: (16)

It's the compound setup, but....

FIrst graph the GT2860 is at 15 PSI boost. If you look at the boost plotted below the hp/tq, you can see it level off at about 200kPa/15 PSI and then slowly start climbing again as big turbo spools.

Second graph, it just keeps climbing hard, that's the small turbo doing all the work, big turbo was set at 4 PSI so basically nothing. That's also why it needs a rebuild. I tried running it to 25-28 PSI all the way to 8,500. Shifting at 6K it seemed fine, but when I started reving it out it overspun the turbo and wore the thrust bearing too fast.

As you will note, it made 388 ft*lbs in that second graph. Thing was a beast.

technicalninja

I'd like to see the rest of the graph if possible. Out to 7500.
It is a beast!
I haven't gotten all the way through your compound build thread...
Time to correct that mistake.
(If the rest of the graph is in your build thread don't waste time reposting it for me)
Thanks again
Rick