Powercard Timing Controller - Miata Turbo Forum - Boost cars, acquire cats.

Welcome to Miataturbo.net   Members
 


DIY Turbo Discussion greddy on a 1.8? homebrew kit?

Reply
 
 
 
LinkBack Thread Tools
Old 01-31-2008, 04:26 PM   #1
Newb
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: San Luis Obispo
Posts: 19
Total Cats: 0
Default Powercard Timing Controller

So the bipes ACU works by checking out the crank angle sensor, the air flow meeter and the air temp sensor and retards timing. My problem is that I have a '99 and thereby no bipes.

The BEGi S kit, as I understand, controls fuel with the FMU. The timing is not controlled but is retarded across the board. If I had a Bipes I wouldn't have to retard my timing all the time, I could just retard it when I have to, thus making more power safely.

I found this on moss's website:

http://www.miatamania.com/SiteGraphi..._10-11-07.html

It's an article from October about the Powercard that controls timing and is now part of the moss MP62 system. I know almost nobody likes Powercard. The thing is that this Powercard resembles the bipes only it works on the NB. It doesn't seem to be reading anything but RPM to control timing and I don't know enough to decide if that's senseless or not.

Anybody with some real knowledge willing to take a stab at if the Powercard Timing Controller is worth a second glance?
Stitches is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-31-2008, 04:46 PM   #2
Senior Member
iTrader: (5)
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Troy, MI
Posts: 860
Total Cats: 13
Default

Read this thread:

http://forum.miata.net/vb/showthread.php?t=255415

This is absolutely THE most primitive device you can use for timing control. To my knowledge, RPM-based ignition curves are good enough only for weed-whacker engines these days. I was using this control strategy on my 2-strokes for lack of a better solution.

Its a HUGE step backward from the Bipes, which is a brilliant piece of engineering.

Since you are even considering a powercard, I would imagine you dont have the time or inclination to consider megasquirt.

In that case, take a look at AEM's new F/IC. At around $400, it should be in the same price range as that piece of crap, and on paper atleast, its nearly as good as a standalone. Your 99 Miata is also supported so it shouldn't be hard to setup.
The_Pipefather is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-31-2008, 04:52 PM   #3
Boost Pope
iTrader: (8)
 
Joe Perez's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Chicago (Over two miles from Wrigley Field. Fuck the Cubs. Fuck them in their smarmy goat-hole.)
Posts: 26,318
Total Cats: 1,916
Default

A: The Powercard, while extremely primitive, does take boost into account. It only retards when you are in boost- no retard when in vacuum. The issue seems to be whether it is capable of varying the amount of retard by the amount of boost, or to do a fixed amount of retard whenever *any* boost is present, the amout of retard varying only by RPM. A prominent vendor of superchargers who also resells the Powercard timing device claims that it can, but that in her opinion it is better not to.

B: For the same money (or less) buy a used eManage Blue.
Joe Perez is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-31-2008, 04:53 PM   #4
Elite Member
iTrader: (9)
 
Saml01's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: NYC
Posts: 5,730
Total Cats: 2
Default

^ I second that motion.

But a thought, if he were to install an NA cas into his NB, would he be able to run a bipes then?
Saml01 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-31-2008, 04:55 PM   #5
Boost Pope
iTrader: (8)
 
Joe Perez's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Chicago (Over two miles from Wrigley Field. Fuck the Cubs. Fuck them in their smarmy goat-hole.)
Posts: 26,318
Total Cats: 1,916
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Saml01 View Post
But a thought, if he were to install an NA cas into his NB, would he be able to run a bipes then?
No. He'd be able to go MegaSquirt, but the NB ECU wants to see an NB crank and cam signal. They're different from those output by the NA CAS.

And the real problem isn't anything to do with the sensor itself so much as the ECU apparently not liking to see the CKP and CMP signals moving around relative to each other. Apparently it throws CELs when you do that. You could use a Bipes to delay an NB CKP signal, and from a purely electronic standpoint it'd work, but apparently it freaks out the ECU.

With an NB ECU, you have little choice but to intercept the ignition signals post-ECU.
Joe Perez is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-31-2008, 05:02 PM   #6
Boost Czar
iTrader: (61)
 
Braineack's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Chantilly, VA
Posts: 72,872
Total Cats: 1,790
Default

this alone would make me not buy it:




regardless of anything else.
Braineack is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-31-2008, 05:08 PM   #7
Senior Member
iTrader: (5)
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Troy, MI
Posts: 860
Total Cats: 13
Default

Wow that shows an incredibly poor understanding of timing and combustion.
The_Pipefather is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-31-2008, 05:11 PM   #8
Boost Pope
iTrader: (8)
 
Joe Perez's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Chicago (Over two miles from Wrigley Field. Fuck the Cubs. Fuck them in their smarmy goat-hole.)
Posts: 26,318
Total Cats: 1,916
Default

Fixed:
Attached Thumbnails
Powercard Timing Controller-rings.gif  
Joe Perez is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-31-2008, 05:12 PM   #9
Senior Member
iTrader: (5)
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Troy, MI
Posts: 860
Total Cats: 13
Default

LOL that's better.
The_Pipefather is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-31-2008, 05:25 PM   #10
y8s
2 Props,3 Dildos,& 1 Cat
iTrader: (8)
 
y8s's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Fake Virginia
Posts: 19,038
Total Cats: 407
Default

danger to teh pushrodz!
y8s is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-31-2008, 05:31 PM   #11
Boost Pope
iTrader: (8)
 
Joe Perez's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Chicago (Over two miles from Wrigley Field. Fuck the Cubs. Fuck them in their smarmy goat-hole.)
Posts: 26,318
Total Cats: 1,916
Default

I'm still trying to figure those pushrods out- they appear to exit out the side of the head. External cams?
Joe Perez is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-31-2008, 05:33 PM   #12
Boost Czar
iTrader: (61)
 
Braineack's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Chantilly, VA
Posts: 72,872
Total Cats: 1,790
Default

I wouldn't be surprised if PowerCard commissioned Tom to write and draw that; that pretty much sums up his understanding of the internal combustion engine.
Braineack is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-31-2008, 05:44 PM   #13
Supporting Vendor
 
Matt Cramer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 2,266
Total Cats: 51
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe Perez View Post
I'm still trying to figure those pushrods out- they appear to exit out the side of the head. External cams?
Looks like a botched drawing of a Chrysler Hemi, with flat top pistons. (Which is only appropriate if you want 6:1 compression...)
Matt Cramer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-31-2008, 05:45 PM   #14
Senior Member
iTrader: (5)
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Troy, MI
Posts: 860
Total Cats: 13
Default

Guys that's a hemi. The most advanced engine known to the hick community.

http://www.moparstyle.net/history/im...miDrawing1.jpg
The_Pipefather is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-31-2008, 05:51 PM   #15
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 671
Total Cats: 2
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe Perez View Post
. A prominent vendor of superchargers who also resells the Powercard timing device claims that it can, but that in her opinion it is better not to.
It better not to do it based on load along with rpm??? That is the biggest piece of crap I've heard.

Even if assuming the supercharger unlike a turbo doesn't have a boost control pod in the cabin (so the driver can't tweak the boost limit 5 times a day), imagine a supercharged car is tuned for sea level.

Now go to 10K feet elevation with the same setup (no hardware changes - same pulley, etc.) Because it's a positive displacement pump, the absolute air pressure in the intake under boost will be much less when compared to sea level ( == less air mass going through the engine). In this situation - the tuned for sea level ignition-retard-over-rpm curve would not be optimal because it was tuned for sea level pressure (with entirely different air mass flow/power through the engine). That car will need a different retard over rpm curve at that elevation for optimal performance ...

So, a good controller needs a 2D table for the ignition retard - load/absolute pressure on one axis, rpm on the other.

And AEM F/IC has such table. And I guess Xede, eManage, etc. also handle it the same way.

Is that vendor the same one I am thinking about (... quack ...) who takes the Dynojet as the best dyno in the world because his friend has one in his shop? That Dynojet is no good for much beyond doing/tuning wot pulls and posting numbers for bragging ...
So, he can't simulate different loads on the Dynojet (can't tune a good piggyback cell by cell) so then single WOT pulls over rpm is what his tuning is reduced to ..... haha. and then he is claiming noone can tune a standalone as good as the OEM for cruising ... but of course if all the tuning you do is on a POS inertial Dynojet ....
and then some of his clients complain about having bad drivability/rough running engines when it is not warmed up yet, etc.

Last edited by j_man; 01-31-2008 at 06:06 PM.
j_man is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-31-2008, 06:00 PM   #16
y8s
2 Props,3 Dildos,& 1 Cat
iTrader: (8)
 
y8s's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Fake Virginia
Posts: 19,038
Total Cats: 407
Default

also did you notice that between the top and bottom, the rod length changes? powercard not only increases your mileage, it increases your rod length!

Last edited by y8s; 01-12-2009 at 01:37 PM.
y8s is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-31-2008, 06:05 PM   #17
I'm Miserable!
iTrader: (1)
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Niagara Falls, On, CANADA
Posts: 979
Total Cats: 0
Default

thats what she said.
miataz is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-31-2008, 07:06 PM   #18
Newb
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: San Luis Obispo
Posts: 19
Total Cats: 0
Default

Pipefather nailed it when he surmised I don't have the time/inclination to consider MS. I have researched it a lot and have checked out Savington's MS setup. It's really awesome but just too much computer for me. From what I have heard around town (here and m.net boards) eManage isn't that great a computer for the money but I haven't checked out anything from AEM. I am going to start looking at that route for timing control.

My short term goal is a BEGi S that runs right. It seems like for my '99 the only piece of the puzzle bell hasn't sufficiently solved is timing. Thanks for the advice on AEM and the link.
Stitches is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-31-2008, 08:03 PM   #19
Elite Member
iTrader: (9)
 
Saml01's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: NYC
Posts: 5,730
Total Cats: 2
Default

At least get a wideband then.
Saml01 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-31-2008, 11:31 PM   #20
y8s
2 Props,3 Dildos,& 1 Cat
iTrader: (8)
 
y8s's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Fake Virginia
Posts: 19,038
Total Cats: 407
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by miataz View Post
thats what she said.
must be why i drive faster with my gf in the car. longer rod.
y8s is offline   Reply With Quote
 
 
Reply

Related Topics
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Another Cast Manifold Corky Bell Prefabbed Turbo Kits 18 11-22-2016 10:01 PM
My solution for Oiltemp and Oilpressure input into Megasuirt (MS3) Zaphod MEGAsquirt 41 01-24-2016 01:25 PM
1991 special edition with hard top full part out JC, NJ russian Miata parts for sale/trade 6 10-08-2015 04:01 PM


Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off



All times are GMT -4. The time now is 07:10 PM.