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Old 09-26-2006, 03:30 PM   #1
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Default Starion FMIC Efficiency

All I could find were off-topic arguements.

Whats the ?
I know AndyFloyd was/is getting rid of his. Latest info there?

I have no plans for engine management because I can't afford it. I want to run as much boost as possible -duh- on whatever injectors the RX-7 MAF can accommodate.

91 Octane. I'm starting with about 7psi, then up as mods permit with a MBC.
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Old 09-26-2006, 03:39 PM   #2
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the problem with the starion is the inlet/out size & postion and that it is not bar & plate. The advantage is lightweight. I think it does a good job cooling the charge at the cost of flow.
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Old 09-26-2006, 03:51 PM   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by braineack View Post
at the cost of flow.
Is this pressure drop, or lag?
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Old 09-26-2006, 03:51 PM   #4
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Two issues here. Efficiency and flow restriction.

Efficiency which is degrees of heat removed divided by incoming air temp. Usually a function of IC volume and frontal area receiving airflow. Starion is relatively efficient and light as braineack mentioned.

BUT, just as braineack mentioned the in/outs are 1.75" so not very good for flow, and I believe gives a much larger pressure drop/ decreased flow than one with 2.5" in/outs leading to decreased throttle response and increased lag assuming the same size core. YMMV.
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Old 09-26-2006, 03:54 PM   #5
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Has this ever been messured? Not doubting, I just want to know if it is more speculation based on the design. Or based on actual evidence? Didn't that Jim guy with the pipes do intercooler testing once apon a time?

Going to go look for that info.

Jay
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Old 09-26-2006, 03:55 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by brgracer View Post
Two issues here. Efficiency and flow restriction.

Efficiency which is degrees of heat removed divided by incoming air temp. Usually a function of IC volume and frontal area receiving airflow. Starion is relatively efficient and light as braineack mentioned.

BUT, just as braineack mentioned the in/outs are 1.75" so not very good for flow, and I believe gives a much larger pressure drop than one with 2.5" in/outs. YMMV.
Well thats good info, and good to hear.

Pressure drop fine with me as soon as I run a MBC. I don't think the turbo will notice.

Cooling the charge is my main concern.
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Old 09-26-2006, 04:04 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jayc72 View Post
Has this ever been messured? Not doubting, I just want to know if it is more speculation based on the design. Or based on actual evidence? Didn't that Jim guy with the pipes do intercooler testing once apon a time?

Going to go look for that info.

Jay
**** tested efficiency of the Saab, Starion and RX-7 ICs. He found that they were close in performance, but did not test flow. IIRC, the starion had the biggest cooling effect, BUT...

Just as a reference, at the dyno day Bruce and I had virtually similar setups running the same boost. Only four differences between our setups: my car has one step colder plugs vs. stock plugs, RX-7 AFM vs. stock AFM, ****'s starion kit vs. larger IC + larger pipes (Stripes's kit), and a helper spring. My car made 43 more hp so we think that the combo of AFM, larger IC setup and helper spring accounted for that, but I think the lion's share of the HP came from the larger IC/pipe setup producing less restriction to flow since flow=power. YMMV.
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Old 09-26-2006, 04:08 PM   #8
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UofACATS,
You could always run water or 50/50 water/meth injection. Plumbing and setup are pretty trivial. Relatively cheap too.

Frank
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Old 09-26-2006, 04:12 PM   #9
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This has been tested in the DSM community.. I know I considered running a starion on my GSX eclipse. I will attempt to dig up the numbers. From what I remembered the pressure drop was pretty bad on the starion as opposed to a bar/plate, but.. I can attest, they sure are light.
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Old 09-26-2006, 04:19 PM   #10
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a solid quote from one of my DSM friends:
"they are not much better than the stock SMIC, they do have their added benefits- moved from stock SM location to front mount (more airflow) but the work that it takes to change the inlet and outlet (they are only 1 3/4" stock) and make the intercooler work is not practical for any non-stock turbo application. The intercooler itself flows (from what I can remember - don't quote me) something along the lines of 400 cfm and heat sinks really fast. Also you are putting something on your car that is from the late 80's and can be heavily oxidized on the inside and could have hidden boost leaks. My advice would be to skip the intercooler, the time and money it takes to retrofit it isn't worth the gains, if any."

He is referring to the side mount DSM intercooler vs. starion. Either way the common opinion is: they have a pressure drop, high heat soak, and dont flow exceptionally well. Keep in mind these guys are running these with 2-2.5 inch inlet mods.
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Old 09-26-2006, 04:30 PM   #11
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I've got the Starion in my car right now. Once I have everything else sorted out I wonder how much an advantage it would be to change out to a better I/C setup. Apparantly quite a bit. I guess I'll have to weigh the $$$ vs HP and decide if 30-40hp is worth it. I suppose it will also make a difference in how much boost I intend to run, would I see as much an advantage if only running 12psi? And will I be able to limit myself to only 12psi?

Thanks for the info guys.

Jay
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Old 09-26-2006, 04:52 PM   #12
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Jay,

What inlets are you running on your starion? Ebay intercoolers are not that expensive and provide a much more solid alternative.
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Old 09-26-2006, 05:34 PM   #13
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Stock 1.75"
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Old 09-26-2006, 08:21 PM   #14
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oh yeah..definitely flow restriction.
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Old 09-26-2006, 08:26 PM   #15
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I believe the ~1000hp Porsche 917 Can-am car ran ~2.0" charge pipes...why are you so sure that 1.75" is limiting in our cars? At sane power levels, that is.
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Old 09-26-2006, 08:50 PM   #16
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acording to corky bells max boost, 2.5 in should be more than sufficient for 400 hp. He estimates max efficient airspeed is around mach .4 (this is for intercooler design mind you), while 2.5 with 400 hp is sitting around mach .27

1.75 inches should be plenty wide for 250 hp even. After that you Might want to start thinking about bigger.

What Im actually going to be doing with the starion IC is comparing IC intake and outlet temps for it, a saab one I have, and the audi IC i have that Im currently running side by side with a civic rad. Ill also be trying to see what the preasure loss is though the IC with hooking up the wastegate before it and a boost gauge after it(external wastegate makes this trickier than it sounds for me. My turbo doesnt have a intake point for the wg)
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Old 09-26-2006, 09:03 PM   #17
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Didn't mean to focus on the in/out size so much. I guess the measurement that really matters after efficiency is pressure drop across the IC. While I didn't measure the pressure drop across my old starion, moving to my new setup with bigger everything and better routing of pipes (less turns), there was a significant difference in spool (based on GReddy map sensor vs. rpm logs pre/post) and power (butt dyno since I made too many changes to attribute the power solely to the IC).

I'm not saying that the starion is a bad IC. I used it at 15psi and was very happy with it. Only issue was the under the rad piping and proximity to belts/fans/etc... from ****'s kit. I think most people would be very happy with a starion as it fits in the miata well and provides good cooling. However, if you are going to DIY anyway, you probably can choose a reasonable priced IC with less pressure drop for a little extra power. YMMV.

Link to ****'s IC efficiency testing: http://www. 1 5 p s i .com/ic_tests.htm (remove spaces, I had to do this or it would get censored)
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Old 09-26-2006, 11:28 PM   #18
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I think the diameter of pipe and amount&tightness of bends before adn after whatever intercooelr you have has a greater effect.

If this makes no sense, sorry. I only read a few posts int his therad. l a z i e .
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Old 09-27-2006, 10:45 AM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by brgracer View Post
**** tested efficiency of the Saab, Starion and RX-7 ICs. He found that they were close in performance, but did not test flow. IIRC, the starion had the biggest cooling effect, BUT...

Just as a reference, at the dyno day Bruce and I had virtually similar setups running the same boost. Only four differences between our setups: my car has one step colder plugs vs. stock plugs, RX-7 AFM vs. stock AFM, ****'s starion kit vs. larger IC + larger pipes (Stripes's kit), and a helper spring. My car made 43 more hp so we think that the combo of AFM, larger IC setup and helper spring accounted for that, but I think the lion's share of the HP came from the larger IC/pipe setup producing less restriction to flow since flow=power. YMMV.
I do think you are partially right here. But years ago I made 217whp and 227ft/lb on 13psi with a Starion IC. I had less HP because it was 12psi at redline and 15psi in the midrange ( higher torque ). If I could have held 15psi to redline I think I could have made about 230whp or so. That was also with an RX-7 AFM, but no helper spring. I think the better intercooler is worth about 10-15whp since its got a smaller pressure drop and is more efficent as well. The lower pressure drop will account for a lot because not only is it spooling quicker but you arent working the compressor as hard either to maintain boost. The Starion was enough for me to run a 12.2 @ 117 but I needed to move on since Im looking for 350whp. If I had to guess I would say the Starion IC is good up to about 250whp, after that its getting pushed past its design limits.
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Old 09-27-2006, 10:46 AM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Betrayed View Post
acording to corky bells max boost, 2.5 in should be more than sufficient for 400 hp. He estimates max efficient airspeed is around mach .4 (this is for intercooler design mind you), while 2.5 with 400 hp is sitting around mach .27

1.75 inches should be plenty wide for 250 hp even. After that you Might want to start thinking about bigger.

What Im actually going to be doing with the starion IC is comparing IC intake and outlet temps for it, a saab one I have, and the audi IC i have that Im currently running side by side with a civic rad. Ill also be trying to see what the preasure loss is though the IC with hooking up the wastegate before it and a boost gauge after it(external wastegate makes this trickier than it sounds for me. My turbo doesnt have a intake point for the wg)

Since you are getting my old Starion it has 2" inlet and outlet...
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