Starion FMIC Efficiency
#1
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Starion FMIC Efficiency
All I could find were off-topic arguements.
Whats the ?
I know AndyFloyd was/is getting rid of his. Latest info there?
I have no plans for engine management because I can't afford it. I want to run as much boost as possible -duh- on whatever injectors the RX-7 MAF can accommodate.
91 Octane. I'm starting with about 7psi, then up as mods permit with a MBC.
Whats the ?
I know AndyFloyd was/is getting rid of his. Latest info there?
I have no plans for engine management because I can't afford it. I want to run as much boost as possible -duh- on whatever injectors the RX-7 MAF can accommodate.
91 Octane. I'm starting with about 7psi, then up as mods permit with a MBC.
#4
Two issues here. Efficiency and flow restriction.
Efficiency which is degrees of heat removed divided by incoming air temp. Usually a function of IC volume and frontal area receiving airflow. Starion is relatively efficient and light as braineack mentioned.
BUT, just as braineack mentioned the in/outs are 1.75" so not very good for flow, and I believe gives a much larger pressure drop/ decreased flow than one with 2.5" in/outs leading to decreased throttle response and increased lag assuming the same size core. YMMV.
Efficiency which is degrees of heat removed divided by incoming air temp. Usually a function of IC volume and frontal area receiving airflow. Starion is relatively efficient and light as braineack mentioned.
BUT, just as braineack mentioned the in/outs are 1.75" so not very good for flow, and I believe gives a much larger pressure drop/ decreased flow than one with 2.5" in/outs leading to decreased throttle response and increased lag assuming the same size core. YMMV.
#6
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Two issues here. Efficiency and flow restriction.
Efficiency which is degrees of heat removed divided by incoming air temp. Usually a function of IC volume and frontal area receiving airflow. Starion is relatively efficient and light as braineack mentioned.
BUT, just as braineack mentioned the in/outs are 1.75" so not very good for flow, and I believe gives a much larger pressure drop than one with 2.5" in/outs. YMMV.
Efficiency which is degrees of heat removed divided by incoming air temp. Usually a function of IC volume and frontal area receiving airflow. Starion is relatively efficient and light as braineack mentioned.
BUT, just as braineack mentioned the in/outs are 1.75" so not very good for flow, and I believe gives a much larger pressure drop than one with 2.5" in/outs. YMMV.
Pressure drop fine with me as soon as I run a MBC. I don't think the turbo will notice.
Cooling the charge is my main concern.
#7
Just as a reference, at the dyno day Bruce and I had virtually similar setups running the same boost. Only four differences between our setups: my car has one step colder plugs vs. stock plugs, RX-7 AFM vs. stock AFM, ****'s starion kit vs. larger IC + larger pipes (Stripes's kit), and a helper spring. My car made 43 more hp so we think that the combo of AFM, larger IC setup and helper spring accounted for that, but I think the lion's share of the HP came from the larger IC/pipe setup producing less restriction to flow since flow=power. YMMV.
#10
a solid quote from one of my DSM friends:
"they are not much better than the stock SMIC, they do have their added benefits- moved from stock SM location to front mount (more airflow) but the work that it takes to change the inlet and outlet (they are only 1 3/4" stock) and make the intercooler work is not practical for any non-stock turbo application. The intercooler itself flows (from what I can remember - don't quote me) something along the lines of 400 cfm and heat sinks really fast. Also you are putting something on your car that is from the late 80's and can be heavily oxidized on the inside and could have hidden boost leaks. My advice would be to skip the intercooler, the time and money it takes to retrofit it isn't worth the gains, if any."
He is referring to the side mount DSM intercooler vs. starion. Either way the common opinion is: they have a pressure drop, high heat soak, and dont flow exceptionally well. Keep in mind these guys are running these with 2-2.5 inch inlet mods.
"they are not much better than the stock SMIC, they do have their added benefits- moved from stock SM location to front mount (more airflow) but the work that it takes to change the inlet and outlet (they are only 1 3/4" stock) and make the intercooler work is not practical for any non-stock turbo application. The intercooler itself flows (from what I can remember - don't quote me) something along the lines of 400 cfm and heat sinks really fast. Also you are putting something on your car that is from the late 80's and can be heavily oxidized on the inside and could have hidden boost leaks. My advice would be to skip the intercooler, the time and money it takes to retrofit it isn't worth the gains, if any."
He is referring to the side mount DSM intercooler vs. starion. Either way the common opinion is: they have a pressure drop, high heat soak, and dont flow exceptionally well. Keep in mind these guys are running these with 2-2.5 inch inlet mods.
#11
I've got the Starion in my car right now. Once I have everything else sorted out I wonder how much an advantage it would be to change out to a better I/C setup. Apparantly quite a bit. I guess I'll have to weigh the $$$ vs HP and decide if 30-40hp is worth it. I suppose it will also make a difference in how much boost I intend to run, would I see as much an advantage if only running 12psi? And will I be able to limit myself to only 12psi?
Thanks for the info guys.
Jay
Thanks for the info guys.
Jay
#16
acording to corky bells max boost, 2.5 in should be more than sufficient for 400 hp. He estimates max efficient airspeed is around mach .4 (this is for intercooler design mind you), while 2.5 with 400 hp is sitting around mach .27
1.75 inches should be plenty wide for 250 hp even. After that you Might want to start thinking about bigger.
What Im actually going to be doing with the starion IC is comparing IC intake and outlet temps for it, a saab one I have, and the audi IC i have that Im currently running side by side with a civic rad. Ill also be trying to see what the preasure loss is though the IC with hooking up the wastegate before it and a boost gauge after it(external wastegate makes this trickier than it sounds for me. My turbo doesnt have a intake point for the wg)
1.75 inches should be plenty wide for 250 hp even. After that you Might want to start thinking about bigger.
What Im actually going to be doing with the starion IC is comparing IC intake and outlet temps for it, a saab one I have, and the audi IC i have that Im currently running side by side with a civic rad. Ill also be trying to see what the preasure loss is though the IC with hooking up the wastegate before it and a boost gauge after it(external wastegate makes this trickier than it sounds for me. My turbo doesnt have a intake point for the wg)
#17
Didn't mean to focus on the in/out size so much. I guess the measurement that really matters after efficiency is pressure drop across the IC. While I didn't measure the pressure drop across my old starion, moving to my new setup with bigger everything and better routing of pipes (less turns), there was a significant difference in spool (based on GReddy map sensor vs. rpm logs pre/post) and power (butt dyno since I made too many changes to attribute the power solely to the IC).
I'm not saying that the starion is a bad IC. I used it at 15psi and was very happy with it. Only issue was the under the rad piping and proximity to belts/fans/etc... from ****'s kit. I think most people would be very happy with a starion as it fits in the miata well and provides good cooling. However, if you are going to DIY anyway, you probably can choose a reasonable priced IC with less pressure drop for a little extra power. YMMV.
Link to ****'s IC efficiency testing: http://www. 1 5 p s i .com/ic_tests.htm (remove spaces, I had to do this or it would get censored)
I'm not saying that the starion is a bad IC. I used it at 15psi and was very happy with it. Only issue was the under the rad piping and proximity to belts/fans/etc... from ****'s kit. I think most people would be very happy with a starion as it fits in the miata well and provides good cooling. However, if you are going to DIY anyway, you probably can choose a reasonable priced IC with less pressure drop for a little extra power. YMMV.
Link to ****'s IC efficiency testing: http://www. 1 5 p s i .com/ic_tests.htm (remove spaces, I had to do this or it would get censored)
#18
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I think the diameter of pipe and amount&tightness of bends before adn after whatever intercooelr you have has a greater effect.
If this makes no sense, sorry. I only read a few posts int his therad. l a z i e .
If this makes no sense, sorry. I only read a few posts int his therad. l a z i e .
#19
**** tested efficiency of the Saab, Starion and RX-7 ICs. He found that they were close in performance, but did not test flow. IIRC, the starion had the biggest cooling effect, BUT...
Just as a reference, at the dyno day Bruce and I had virtually similar setups running the same boost. Only four differences between our setups: my car has one step colder plugs vs. stock plugs, RX-7 AFM vs. stock AFM, ****'s starion kit vs. larger IC + larger pipes (Stripes's kit), and a helper spring. My car made 43 more hp so we think that the combo of AFM, larger IC setup and helper spring accounted for that, but I think the lion's share of the HP came from the larger IC/pipe setup producing less restriction to flow since flow=power. YMMV.
Just as a reference, at the dyno day Bruce and I had virtually similar setups running the same boost. Only four differences between our setups: my car has one step colder plugs vs. stock plugs, RX-7 AFM vs. stock AFM, ****'s starion kit vs. larger IC + larger pipes (Stripes's kit), and a helper spring. My car made 43 more hp so we think that the combo of AFM, larger IC setup and helper spring accounted for that, but I think the lion's share of the HP came from the larger IC/pipe setup producing less restriction to flow since flow=power. YMMV.
#20
acording to corky bells max boost, 2.5 in should be more than sufficient for 400 hp. He estimates max efficient airspeed is around mach .4 (this is for intercooler design mind you), while 2.5 with 400 hp is sitting around mach .27
1.75 inches should be plenty wide for 250 hp even. After that you Might want to start thinking about bigger.
What Im actually going to be doing with the starion IC is comparing IC intake and outlet temps for it, a saab one I have, and the audi IC i have that Im currently running side by side with a civic rad. Ill also be trying to see what the preasure loss is though the IC with hooking up the wastegate before it and a boost gauge after it(external wastegate makes this trickier than it sounds for me. My turbo doesnt have a intake point for the wg)
1.75 inches should be plenty wide for 250 hp even. After that you Might want to start thinking about bigger.
What Im actually going to be doing with the starion IC is comparing IC intake and outlet temps for it, a saab one I have, and the audi IC i have that Im currently running side by side with a civic rad. Ill also be trying to see what the preasure loss is though the IC with hooking up the wastegate before it and a boost gauge after it(external wastegate makes this trickier than it sounds for me. My turbo doesnt have a intake point for the wg)
Since you are getting my old Starion it has 2" inlet and outlet...