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1-Placing the turbo where the heater used to be ( schematic)... inlet :back of the head / outlet : pipe to the water pump
Pro: good flow, quicker to temp engine. cons: the turbo will only get "heated" water from the back of the head.
Also, when engine off, the cool water from the radiater can travel up to the turbo, then to the head (siphon)
2- drilling at the bottom of the rad to get cool water to feed the turbo. return is where the hose to the throttle body water hose is connected. A "T" is required there to connect the hose from the turbo and from the TB to the water pump neck. I suppose the waterpump is strong enough to pull the water from there ( bottom of the rad, then up to the turbo and back to the waterpump inlet)
3- use the "FM" configuration. but without the mixing that occurs with a waterneck (where some colder water from the waterpump is/could be mixed with "hot" water from the throttle body) , this solution seems to be worse than idea 1 ( less flow and water even hotter since after the head, it will come through the "oil warmer".
It seems like you are trying to solve a problem you don't have https://www.garrettmotion.com/racing...or-your-turbo/
Seems that if you angle the turbo properly it will take care of itself naturally. Hope I don't come across as rude, just trying to help save you a headache. Beautiful car by the way.
Last edited by UnderPSI; 01-20-2020 at 08:48 AM.
Reason: I write good.
... By MT standards, your post is almost like a friendly suggestion... !
You're right that I may be trying tro solve an issue that doesn't exist. But since it's my first build, i'd rather cover all base even if an issue may not exist.
Since, i haven't seen this routing used nor "validated" by the "reputable" track user/builder, i'd rather ask and look stupid now, that be supid AND sorry later for not asking...
... By MT standards, your post is almost like a friendly suggestion... !
You're right that I may be trying tro solve an issue that doesn't exist. But since it's my first build, i'd rather cover all base even if an issue may not exist.
Since, i haven't seen this routing used nor "validated" by the "reputable" track user/builder, i'd rather ask and look stupid now, that be supid AND sorry later for not asking...
This video is quite long but may be helpful. Everything I have ever read about water cooled turbos is that they really only utilize the water cooling after the engine is shut down; alas, I am not the track turbo user you are looking for
-New clutch back in place - Noob note : don't forget the pilot bearing (one year after removing the oem flywheel, one can forget there is a bearing in the flywheel center when fitting a new lightweight flywheel...)
Not great to forget ( you learn from your mistakes...hopefully!) but not as bad as remembering after the engine and gearbox are back in the car ...
- Right mazdacomp engine mount in place, both manifold in place ( plenum is just in place so that nothing falls in the engine) ( i'll fit the left one during engine install)
-EGR blocking plates in place.
-I tighten the old crankshaft bolt just to 100ft/lbs... i'll put a new bolt after cheking that i got my timing belt install right
- i fitted new seals on the gearbox ( front and rear)
My engine is held by the exhaust side on the stand, no i can no install yet the waterpump mixing pipe nor the steering pump bracket. What did i forgot before putting engine back in the car?
As for water cooling for the turbo... I'll follow FM R&D conclusions (thanks for sharing the knowledge...) and adapt it to my Qmax reroute.
I won't use the heater core circuit. i'll just connect the outlet from the reroute straight back to the mixing pipe.
Instead i'll use the small spare hole (1/8 npt ) to feed water to the turbo from the reroute.
From the turbo "back to engine" i have two choices:
- the nipple at the mixing pipe of the water pump (like most install)
- or somewhere into the radiator...
Drilling the radiator seems like looking for trouble but it gives a chance for the water to be cooled down a bit befoire re-entering the waterpump-engine. Also, when the engine stops; the waterflow inside the turbo will be reversed, so the "radiator" or "mixing pipe" nipple will become the water source, and the cooler/the lower, the better (optimization of the siphoning effect... ).
What i'll probably do, is play it safe and connect to the nipple and see how this works, but i'm curious to know what other have done/have to say in a the turbo + track car... especially S1 cars
I just put some items in place to test my routings ideas,
Turbo Water cooling:
I intend to use the 1/8 npt port (plugged) of the Qmax reroute to turbo. i intend to tap into the "water mixing manifold" for the Turbo to water pump line.
While engine is running this shouldn't carry too much hot water straight back to the engine (as mentionned in the FM own reroute video presentation). AND while engine NOT running be a good, low (lowest?), source of cool water to maximize the shiphon effect...
Hope this is sound reasoning. But I wonder why 949 is not using it on vegas ( at least on the pics i have) i may miss something!
Water lines
i'll bypass the heater (removed) and connect the 5/8 qmax port directly to the water pipe of the water mixing manifold
Oil cooling.
nothing fancy, i just wonder if running the oil line along the top of the head cover is high enough/far enough from the turbo / exhaust manifold to prevent it from heat soak?
intercooler lines
Turbo to IC : 90° silicone elbow to 45°aluminium to 90° silicone.
To make room, in this cramped area, i turned the metal port of the PS pump some 45° to reroute some PS hose.
IC to TB : 90 ° silicone to 90° aluminium to 45° aluminium to 90° silicone.
as i'm no welder i tried to reduce as much as i could the need of welding alumiium.
BOV lines
not a proper bov, as it's plumped back. A nice 1" aluminium pipe with a 45° elbow should do the job from the turbosmart "BOV" (installed right befor the TB ) to plumb it back between the air filter and the turbo inlet...
I know, lots of saying/thinking and not that much doing... but i have a 51cm/3,7kg (That's 8"/ 8,25lbs) new "project" that get and desserve all my attention and thoughst at the present . On the other and, on the sleepless night to come, i may make some escape to the garage!
Thanks for your patience. So progress has been slow here but the engine is running...it actually started on the first try, needless to say that i am quite proud - and relieved- as this is my first project!
i still have to connect the EBC (reason why there are some spare wire on the valve cover), finish some heat shielding work, and i'll be able to start tuning. i have some VAG cops (NGK) to install, but i recently learn that the MS3 basic does not provide a strong enough current to drive them safely.
I'm looking for a solution that doesn't require to open the ms3 and weld electronic components...if flow force is willing to detail the R8 cops harness + a "high current plug in device" i' ll be first in line :-)
I ran the MS3 normally aspirated for 3 years so i'll have to create a new base map.
Is there some sound rules of thumbs when modifying the maps when you go from N/A to Turbo? iI assume that most of the part below the 100kpa should be very close except for small mods to take into account the VE adjustment as the engine has to "fight" the presence of IC and turbo, which is impacting its efficiency... What adjustments need to be made to the ignition timing? i suppose i have to advance my maps by a couple of degrees... but by how much? i did try to contact Reverant who built my MS3 initially but didn't get any answer yet.
i also when "wild"with the spending lately (as a compensation for being slow in the "workshop") : Xidas race are fitted and 9lr wings + airdam are waiting to be installed!
A bit late, but I can confirm that you are OK with turbo water lines and oil feed. Also the recirculation (bypass / blow-off) piping looks very good. (From Post #46 above).
Changes in map below 100 kPa should be minimal, if any. Both VE and Spark. Idle parameters should be good.
Nice looking 10AE.
What compression ratio pistons?
Where is your catch can?
A bit late, but I can confirm that you are OK with turbo water lines and oil feed. Also the recirculation (bypass / blow-off) piping looks very good. (From Post #46 above).
Thanks you... Iindeed try to make it look good
Originally Posted by DNMakinson
Changes in map below 100 kPa should be minimal, if any. Both VE and Spark. Idle parameters should be good.
That's what I supposed even though i thought that different intake and exhaust manifold could have change a bit the efficiency of the engine, and thus the VE table... probably the difference between theory and practice
Originally Posted by DNMakinson
What compression ratio pistons?
Where is your catch can?
oem NB piston and no catch can... as per Savington explaination regarding track + turbo set up (i have a moroso catch can just in case).
The PCV valve is still there though but will be removed and changed for a plug.
Some details...
mapping was done using Dynapack. It does reads higher as the 4 pods are connected to the hub of the car. ( 325hp is around 280-290whp for you). as for accuracy, I don't really care for the final numbers, but i do care for the torque curve shape! Neverthess, a 1.8 NA with similar setup but on pump gas, no EBC made 250hp on the same bench, same guy...
Car is running under Ethanoil E 85 ( less heat, more timing, much less risk of knock, much cheaper gas.... but hygroscopic so will have to find a solution during winter storage)
the tuner had to respect : max 1.2 Bar (that's 17psi), max 7000rpm, max torque 350NM( 260 Ft/lbs) and aiming at a "flat torque curve".
max boost is... just 0,8b... He reach 370NM (273 Ft/lbs) that i validated. I introduce this limit to preserve the 6sp gearbox (track use).
He said that he had to really had to smoothen the torque peak as the car is able of 450nm (330 ft/lbs...)
I have some work left on ducting... and i suppose install stronger front & rear hubs!
01-20-2020, 08:47 AM
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