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Old 05-14-2007, 11:30 AM   #1
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Default wanna see why timing is important?

If you all read I had trouble on the dyno...long story short my WBo2 was providing false readings, so I tuned the fuel wayyy off.

got it close with no WBo2 logs, then advanced spark since I was making no power.

no fuel/boost was changed during these runs...you can see they are flat at 11.5:1, that's post cat, so I figure 10:1 throughout...so I have work to do there when I solve my LC-1 problem.

But check out what advancing timing only did for me:

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Old 05-14-2007, 11:41 AM   #2
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Looks like going to the dyno was as valuable to you as me. I made 8 hp and torque by leaning out 10.6:1 at my richest point. :gay: New bov kept the boost in - which put me in a less tuned area. I now have my power graph settings sync'd to my dyno chart, so it should reasonbly relfect my changes after tuning.

Once you have you're fuel tuned, I bet you'll see another 25rwhp at those boost levels on the high end. Did you ever get knock on your last ign adjustment?
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Old 05-14-2007, 11:42 AM   #3
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Nice 20hp increase. I think it's time to start fooling around with my default Link settings.

Also, why do you think your LC-1 failed? Where is it located on your downpipe?
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Old 05-14-2007, 11:43 AM   #4
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Significant.

Dont discount the post-cat Air/Fuel readings though. My datalogs and the Dynojet AFR curve are a perfect match.

Did you do like Tom suggested and not advance timing between 4500-5500? I bet you could advance a little to get rid of the "sag" in your curves. Just be VERY careful to listen for knock (windows/top up, stereo off).

Matt
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Old 05-14-2007, 11:44 AM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stripes View Post
Nice 20hp increase. I think it's time to start fooling around with my default Link settings.

Also, why do you think your LC-1 failed? Where is it located on your downpipe?
it wasn't his sensor... I gave him a known good sensor to try and it still sucked bawls. Theory is that it's the cabling to the unit or the unit itself.
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Old 05-14-2007, 11:57 AM   #6
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Originally Posted by y8s View Post
Significant.

Dont discount the post-cat Air/Fuel readings though. My datalogs and the Dynojet AFR curve are a perfect match.

Did you do like Tom suggested and not advance timing between 4500-5500? I bet you could advance a little to get rid of the "sag" in your curves. Just be VERY careful to listen for knock (windows/top up, stereo off).

Matt

Even so it dips into the 10s. I still have power to be had there.

No, i basically advanced the entire timing table in boost, >100kPa, +8.

When I go back and think about where I was running my Bipes...it was almost exactly dead on. So I made a new table this morning based on what I was doing with bipes...

At 4k, 10psi, and WOT with Bipes I was at 22 advance (16 base, pulling 8), the FM table I started with put me at 13, 9 more retarded than I used to run.

And yes, I believe my LC-1 controller died...it will not try to recalbrate, i see "low voltage" if no sensor is plugged in, and "heater circuit open" if a sensor is plugged in...two different sensors tried, same results. The sensor itself is 3in. pre-cat.

My tune was a flat 12.5:1 AFR when i was taking logs the day it died...on the dyno with the tune unchanged it was greater than 10:1 throughout the entire dyno pull...

for those who are curious:

this is what i started with

this is what I left with

this is what I'll be running today
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Old 05-14-2007, 11:58 AM   #7
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Scott,

Didn't you feel the drop in power afer changing to the MS? Looks significant enough At what point in your tuning process did the LC-1 go **** up?
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Old 05-14-2007, 12:01 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stripes View Post
Nice 20hp increase. I think it's time to start fooling around with my default Link settings.

One of my errors was using the FM AF targets. One of the guys at the dyno has a 250whp Miata with an AVO kit and his AF target at 15psi was over 1 full point leaner than what the FM target is. And that's his safe AF target. He made another 17whp at 1/2 point leaner. I pulled 4 master fuel points and made 10whp/10ftlbs. My guess is that Colorado gas sucks as bad as they say, and the FM defaults are conservative on top of that.
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Old 05-14-2007, 12:04 PM   #9
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starting to look better scott.
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Old 05-14-2007, 12:10 PM   #10
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Originally Posted by jayc72 View Post
Scott,

Didn't you feel the drop in power afer changing to the MS? Looks significant enough At what point in your tuning process did the LC-1 go **** up?

I actually thought it was faster (but I was talking to Newbsauce about it that it didn't feel as "peppy")....but i could attribute that to my sensor slow dying and me slowly changing my tune...I changed it almost every other day for about 2 weeks when I installed it. I think it was the placebo effect, I'm seeing 12psi on my gauge, hadn't driven the car for a while, and been driving my altima before that.

starting with 125rwhp and leaving with 190rwhp was night and day...

Quote:
Originally Posted by m2cupcar View Post
My guess is that Colorado gas sucks as bad as they say, and the FM defaults are conservative on top of that.
yeah and I run 93 with 10% ethanol (they run 91), which is supposed to be a better knock surpressor.
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Old 05-14-2007, 12:36 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by m2cupcar View Post

One of my errors was using the FM AF targets. One of the guys at the dyno has a 250whp Miata with an AVO kit and his AF target at 15psi was over 1 full point leaner than what the FM target is. And that's his safe AF target. He made another 17whp at 1/2 point leaner. I pulled 4 master fuel points and made 10whp/10ftlbs. My guess is that Colorado gas sucks as bad as they say, and the FM defaults are conservative on top of that.
The dyno guy at ACA was also trying to get people to run 11:1 AFRs. I'm like wtf... my car is running 12.5-13:1 and not knocking at 8 psi, why waste the fuel?

I mean I *get* the idea of safety margin. But more than 12:1 at 8 psi is silly.

I also run FM's default hydra timing map... I added 2 prior to my first run... didn't knock. I suspect I could add more... mmmm more.

Check it:

Last edited by y8s; 01-12-2009 at 01:34 PM.
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Old 05-14-2007, 12:46 PM   #12
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I don't understand how my map could be so far off on another car. I know the spark is conservative, but the fuel should be dead on, a flat 11.7:1. But also, if the spark is so retarded, how was I able to make an 85mph pass at the drag strip? No sub 200whp miata can do that.

how do your logs compare to this?
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Old 05-14-2007, 12:49 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by m2cupcar View Post

One of my errors was using the FM AF targets. One of the guys at the dyno has a 250whp Miata with an AVO kit and his AF target at 15psi was over 1 full point leaner than what the FM target is. And that's his safe AF target. He made another 17whp at 1/2 point leaner. I pulled 4 master fuel points and made 10whp/10ftlbs. My guess is that Colorado gas sucks as bad as they say, and the FM defaults are conservative on top of that.
Are you just going to leave it at adjusting master fuel or are you going to change the AF targets? If the later I'd be interested to see what you come up with.
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Old 05-14-2007, 12:52 PM   #14
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Y8s - that's pretty much what I came away with from the dyno. Follow the masses to a point of coarse tune, THEN start tuning YOUR car based on the data it's producing. If I pulled 4 full points of master fuel and made 10rwhp/10ftlbs, then it's pretty obvious where I need to go with my tuning. Fuel quality, elevation and another handful of variables make a huge difference in what's right for each car.

Al - I think it's because the base timing on Scott's car was set correctly - right?

Jay - no, I've got to go back to the original non boosted (low boosted) row fuel settings because they got lean and KILLED my spool up (lost 600rpm to peak boost). But doing the master fuel change is the quickest way to finding out what's needed. And I had no knock in the leaned out areas, which means I've got more IGN headroom. I'd follow something similar Y8s targets, since displacement and fuel is similar. Maybe back off .2-.5 points for safety and then ease it leaner. He made substantial power for the boost and there's no doubt a good AFR played a large part in it... next to the new front bumper of course.

For me - I'm going to follow the guy with the avo kit that's been running his AFR for the last five years, under track conditions and his car is still making the same power. For max power in row 6 @15psi he ran 12.5:1, no knock and that yeilded 267rwhp and ~260ftlbs on a 95 1.8. Safe tune at 15psi is 12-12.2:1. I ran 10.6 - 11.2 in the same area and made 250rwhp/250ftlbs. - but you can see where I get pig rich on the dyno sheet, hp plateaus and then falls.

Last edited by m2cupcar; 05-14-2007 at 01:09 PM.
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Old 05-14-2007, 12:54 PM   #15
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Al: I doubled checked your spark map with FMs defaults and they are dead...so I don't think there's anything "wrong" with them at all. But based off what I was running with Bipes and what I advanced it to on the dyno, I think it was too conservative, especially given I run higher octane.

I ended up running your fuel map unaltered; when mine proved super rich...if you look at my dyno you'll see it's flat at 11.8-11.5. Run #6 is running your msq file, no other changes. Then i just started adding timing.

Rob: I'm pretty sure my timing is set correctly...I'm going back out today at lunch to check it for the 5th time. I'm going set the MS at 0, timing light at 0, and pulley mark at 0. Can't mess up then. But when I added 6° of timing the the non-boosted cells this morning it pinged.
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Old 05-14-2007, 01:06 PM   #16
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There's gotta be something aside from the conservative timing though, for some reason it's running really rich on yours, the MS fuel constants should have adjusted for it perfectly, and I'll go check my timing again to make sure mine is correct.

But you see what I'm saying, there's no way my car is making even close to 170whp, given the 1/8th mile trap speed. Either something isn't translating correctly in the msq or you just REALLy need a bigger exhaust.
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Old 05-14-2007, 01:19 PM   #17
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well, my WBO2 died two days before I went to the dyno...my fuel was ****-poorly tuned....my first pull was 165rwhp, when i finally loaded your map i gained 10rwhp (178rwhp), no timing/boost touched.
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Old 05-14-2007, 01:38 PM   #18
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aL your turbo is more effecient at 10-12 psi than his t3 s60 it might not flow as much up top but mid range it outperforms hence you get quicker more constant boost than he does, and require more fuel earlier in the RPM cycle. I had to lean out your files abit myslef ot establish a good idle etc as well as modify my warmup files. Still your files where pretty frigin close. i havent tried it in boost yet i need a air filter before i want to drive it to far ya know.
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Old 05-14-2007, 02:14 PM   #19
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which wideband were you using that died? Kinda figured they'd last forever like most gauges do. Is this common?
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Old 05-14-2007, 02:21 PM   #20
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the LC1's off ebay seem to crapping out fairly regularly
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