Welding aluminum - Miata Turbo Forum - Boost cars, acquire cats.

Welcome to Miataturbo.net   Members
 


DIY Turbo Discussion greddy on a 1.8? homebrew kit?

Reply
 
 
 
LinkBack Thread Tools
Old 06-04-2009, 12:57 PM   #1
Boost Pope
Thread Starter
iTrader: (8)
 
Joe Perez's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Chicago (Over two miles from Wrigley Field. Fuck the Cubs. Fuck them in their smarmy goat-hole.)
Posts: 26,317
Total Cats: 1,914
Default Welding aluminum

If one wished to weld an attachment onto a factory intake manifold (or more precisely, to pay someone else to do it), what factors would one need to consider when choosing the material from which to make the attachment in terms of its computability with the base material? IOW, if there is a reason to choose one aluminum compound over another (ie: 2024, 6061, 6063, etc) in terms of the strength of the weld or other related factors?
Joe Perez is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-04-2009, 01:25 PM   #2
y8s
2 Props,3 Dildos,& 1 Cat
iTrader: (8)
 
y8s's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Fake Virginia
Posts: 19,038
Total Cats: 406
Default

y8s is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-04-2009, 01:26 PM   #3
Senior Member
iTrader: (2)
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 602
Total Cats: 0
Default

I'm a noob to aluminum welding myself, but let me just say (if you're planning to do the welding yourself) welding aluminum is a PITA.

I weld w/ 4043 in a Miller SpoolGun and run 100% argon. It's not easy.

I don't know what alloy to choose as your bracket material.
Project84 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-04-2009, 01:34 PM   #4
Boost Pope
Thread Starter
iTrader: (8)
 
Joe Perez's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Chicago (Over two miles from Wrigley Field. Fuck the Cubs. Fuck them in their smarmy goat-hole.)
Posts: 26,317
Total Cats: 1,914
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by y8s View Post
how's that
That's nice. Doesn't really tell me what material the intake manifold is made of, or discuss welding one material to another.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Project84 View Post
I'm a noob to aluminum welding myself, but let me just say (if you're planning to do the welding yourself) welding aluminum is a PITA.
So I've heard. I can lay down passable welds on mild steel with a MIG, but as I said above, I fully intend to have someone competent do the aluminum work for me.
Joe Perez is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-04-2009, 01:42 PM   #5
Senior Member
iTrader: (2)
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 602
Total Cats: 0
Default

I did a search and looked around for any referrence to what grade automotive intake aluminum is made up of and found nothing.

Use a quality spool and a good rigid piece for your bracket and you'll be fine.
Project84 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-04-2009, 01:57 PM   #6
Elite Member
iTrader: (14)
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Edmonton, AB
Posts: 4,921
Total Cats: 0
Default

Why not ask BEGI? They've been welding bits the the stock intake manifold, as illustrated by Scott's IM.
jayc72 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-04-2009, 02:00 PM   #7
Junior Member
iTrader: (3)
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Murphy, Tx
Posts: 182
Total Cats: 6
Default

I'd ask your welder what he reccomends. I'd be willing to say it won't matter much what kind of aluminum you use as long as it's not an exotic grade.

If you want to be certain give BEGI a call. If I recall correctly they used a flange lopped off a factory manifold to make a intake manifold for one of the members here. I bet they would tell you what alloy material and rod they used.
Fidgitk is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-04-2009, 02:23 PM   #8
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Toronto
Posts: 182
Total Cats: 0
Default

Like Fidgitk said, it shouldn't matter much. When I had my oil pan welded, the mat'l was dirty as anything (low grade, lot's of contaminants.) The manifold is likely the same mat'l, a decent welder won't have a problem. It's not typically advisable to weld different grades together, but this probably won't be a high stress area so it should be fine.
fluke is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-04-2009, 03:11 PM   #9
y8s
2 Props,3 Dildos,& 1 Cat
iTrader: (8)
 
y8s's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Fake Virginia
Posts: 19,038
Total Cats: 406
Default

edit: uh yeah, scotts mani.

Incidentally, welding aluminum with a MIG is very easy. The problem is in feeding the wire (and proper polarity) more than anything else. Otherwise it lays down just like regular steel.
y8s is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-04-2009, 03:16 PM   #10
Moderator
iTrader: (11)
 
sixshooter's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Tampa, Florida
Posts: 15,662
Total Cats: 1,560
Default

If you choose incorrectly, you will create a battery (been there). Some aluminum alloys are far more noble than others and the less noble will erode electrons at a serious rate, especially if you are using tap water instead of distilled water to mix with the ethylene glycol in your radiator (a no no).

After WWII quite a few new aluminum boat manufacturers popped up to take advantage of the new skills that so many workers had acquired while working on aircraft assembly lines. What many of them didn't understand was the differences between the alloys of aluminum. Many aluminum boats were lost shortly after being introduced to salty or brackish water. The aluminum panels were undergoing a reaction with the dissimilar alloy rivets and eroding the rivets right out of their holes. This occurred in freshwater as well, but much more slowly, but still caused dramatic structural failures.
Ain't science neat?
sixshooter is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 06-04-2009, 03:50 PM   #11
I'm Miserable!
iTrader: (2)
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: monroe CT
Posts: 463
Total Cats: 0
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by sixshooter View Post
If you choose incorrectly, you will create a battery (been there). Some aluminum alloys are far more noble than others and the less noble will erode electrons at a serious rate, especially if you are using tap water instead of distilled water to mix with the ethylene glycol in your radiator (a no no).

After WWII quite a few new aluminum boat manufacturers popped up to take advantage of the new skills that so many workers had acquired while working on aircraft assembly lines. What many of them didn't understand was the differences between the alloys of aluminum. Many aluminum boats were lost shortly after being introduced to salty or brackish water. The aluminum panels were undergoing a reaction with the dissimilar alloy rivets and eroding the rivets right out of their holes. This occurred in freshwater as well, but much more slowly, but still caused dramatic structural failures.
Ain't science neat?
i just felt my brain getting bigger but i would talk to begi or flyin miata like they said above. i know fm welded bungs on the old link piggy back setups for the 99-00 miatas. but i would guess 6061 would be the one.
1990miata1.6 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-04-2009, 04:35 PM   #12
Senior Member
iTrader: (2)
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 602
Total Cats: 0
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by y8s View Post
edit: uh yeah, scotts mani.

Incidentally, welding aluminum with a MIG is very easy. The problem is in feeding the wire (and proper polarity) more than anything else. Otherwise it lays down just like regular steel.
I would happily disagree. I regularly weld .035 316 SS with my MIG and it's NOTHING like using .035 4043 aluminum.

My Millermatic 140 is a MIG.... I bought a spool gun kit for it so I could weld aluminum, it comes with a switch so you can change polarity easily. Speed and voltage are still user friendly and easily changed.

The problem w/ welding aluminum is contaminants. Aluminum has to be virtually spotless to get a decent weld on it w/ a MIG. It's likewise virtually IMPOSSIBLE to make aluminum THAT clean. Recommended to me was the use of a stainless steel cup brush, dedicated and used solely for cleaning aluminum prior to welding. I found that it doesn't work worth a ****, and the "low speed cleaning" recommendation doesn't work either.

I now use an 80 grit "flapper wheel" on a 4" angle grinder spinning 10,000 RPM to clean my butt joints before welding, and run 100% argon at 30 CFH. Anything other than this combination and I'm puddling up slag and my welds look like atomic bird poo, and have zero strength.

Now... with all that being said, I would probably have more success if I weren't using a 110v welder.

PS: I even tried backpurging the aluminum intercooler pipes I fabbed and it didn't help in the least.
Project84 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-04-2009, 04:56 PM   #13
Junior Member
iTrader: (1)
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: South Florida
Posts: 491
Total Cats: -1
Default

You will be fine with any aluminum alloy.

Last edited by mrtonyg; 06-04-2009 at 05:10 PM.
mrtonyg is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-04-2009, 04:56 PM   #14
Boost Czar
iTrader: (61)
 
Braineack's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Chantilly, VA
Posts: 72,846
Total Cats: 1,787
Default

Braineack is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-04-2009, 05:42 PM   #15
Boost Pope
Thread Starter
iTrader: (8)
 
Joe Perez's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Chicago (Over two miles from Wrigley Field. Fuck the Cubs. Fuck them in their smarmy goat-hole.)
Posts: 26,317
Total Cats: 1,914
Default

So, Scott, what kind of material is that?
Joe Perez is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-04-2009, 06:25 PM   #16
Elite Member
iTrader: (8)
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Bellingham, Wa
Posts: 2,732
Total Cats: 3
Default

Brain loves posting only a picture as a response to a question lol.
wayne_curr is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-04-2009, 06:47 PM   #17
Boost Pope
Thread Starter
iTrader: (8)
 
Joe Perez's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Chicago (Over two miles from Wrigley Field. Fuck the Cubs. Fuck them in their smarmy goat-hole.)
Posts: 26,317
Total Cats: 1,914
Default

I'm gonna change his damn avatar to a picture of my dick if he doesn't answer...
Joe Perez is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-04-2009, 07:10 PM   #18
Elite Member
iTrader: (46)
 
Stein's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Nebraska
Posts: 4,812
Total Cats: 138
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe Perez View Post
I'm gonna change his damn avatar to a picture of my dick if he doesn't answer...
They don't call avatar-sized pics thumbnails for nothing.

Really, it is going to likely be 6061 or 6063 for extrusion grade (tubing) aluminum. 6063 is "architectual" grade, easier to extrude, most of your complex shapes and cross sections (like screen door molding, window molding, etc) will be 6063, but not structurally as strong. That isn't relevant in this application and either will work and weld the same.

2024 and 7075 are going to be harder and bit stronger but 3x the cost per foot with no benefit in this application.
Stein is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-04-2009, 07:23 PM   #19
Boost Pope
Thread Starter
iTrader: (8)
 
Joe Perez's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Chicago (Over two miles from Wrigley Field. Fuck the Cubs. Fuck them in their smarmy goat-hole.)
Posts: 26,317
Total Cats: 1,914
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stein View Post
They don't call avatar-sized pics thumbnails for nothing.
What is not generally known is that moderators have the ability to insert avatars larger than the 150px limitation imposed upon everyone else. Scott's new avatar will push his messages all the way off the damn screen.
Joe Perez is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-04-2009, 07:37 PM   #20
Moderator
iTrader: (11)
 
sixshooter's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Tampa, Florida
Posts: 15,662
Total Cats: 1,560
Default

An intake manifold doesn't have to worry about constant contact with water which has a funny knack for conducting electrical current.

Do what you wish, but I'm not throwing that out there to hurt what you are doing, but to help.

Two words: anode, cathode.
sixshooter is online now   Reply With Quote
 
 
Reply

Related Topics
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
OTS Bilstein to motorsports ASN conversion stoves Suspension, Brakes, Drivetrain 5 04-21-2016 04:00 PM
ACT race clutch and AASCO 7lb. aluminum flywheel graexodus Miata parts for sale/trade 5 10-26-2015 02:48 PM
FS/FT: 03.5 Mazdaspeed Protege leatherface24 Cars for sale/trade 15 10-16-2015 12:35 PM
Back to Stock Part Out!! Turbo Parts, MS2 Enhanced 01-05, Suspension, and MOAR! StratoBlue1109 Miata parts for sale/trade 16 10-02-2015 10:39 AM
Moroso Air Oil Separator Catch Can Aroundcorner Miata parts for sale/trade 2 10-01-2015 04:20 PM


Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off



All times are GMT -4. The time now is 07:53 PM.