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Old 11-26-2008, 12:35 AM   #41
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I can't wait to sneak in a couple of silver painted copper units

I can do the dip stick pretty easy.

The gear set is a serious problem for alot of reasons.

I have never designed gears, and its a bit of an art... thats a big one . For the most part I have a solid understanding of a lot of systems on a car from working with them over the past 10 years. The transmissions though, I've never gotten into.

Beyond me not being really comfortable designing something like that... The big hurdle is the manufacturing. It is so ridiculously expensive to make the tooling. Then its not exactly simple to cut, and everything is held to a very tight tolerance. If someone would really like to head this up who is an experienced engineer in the matter then maybe I could help push it along. Something that big is not something I'd like to go alone on though. Making multiple precision gears, writing a flawless process spec, and getting it right on the first shot is more then I think I could do.

Short shifter I could do, but I don't have a 6 speed. Anyone want to yank their 6 speed shifter and send it to me?

As for traction bar testing, thanks for putting in the interest. We could use testing on street's first, if it goes ok then upgrade to slicks. I'm trying to think how we would actually test this, besides it feels right. Do you have a data logger, or a launch box? The best way is to see it in the 60' stops if we knew launch R.P.M. really well. Although with the way my car hops coming off the line, any improvement would be really noticeable as long as it was even close. Getting consistency out of these vehicles is a real problem for me, and I've got several bracket class wins in other cars. It drives me nuts that I can't get mine to hook.

Aren't there some lightweight control arms floating around out there somewhere?

License plate mount would be a no brainer, just need a following big enough to warrant the time.
Well, here's a couple things to consider. Cutting straight tooth gears would simplify the design and manufacturing processes, probably be cheaper, and will make them stronger. I'm sure you can buy the tooling to cut the teeth on the gears. It's finding the broaches that will be hard. They will likely have to be custom made by a tool and die shop.

FWIW, for straight cut gears, it's pretty cut and dry how to make them. All the angles, depths, and geometry can be pretty easily calculated.

As far as the wheel hop issue, it will be somewhat hard to get numerical data. I'd say you're gonna wanna test a car that has a lot of power, open diff, launch control, blown shocks, and overinflated slicks. Basically a wheel-hop-inducing setup. As for measuring anything, I've heard of putting a high speed camera in the fender wells to watch the tires. Maybe put a piece of a tape measure, fastened to the body, and laying on top of the control arm with a reference point and use the camera to measure deflection, harmonics, etc.
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Old 11-26-2008, 12:36 AM   #42
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Thats a really good idea. I'll check out progress and see what they are doing.

If they are straight cut sure thats easy, but damn thats loud. I've got a guy who can do the broaches.

Thanks
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Old 11-26-2008, 12:47 AM   #43
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I'm pretty sure 90% of the people that want gears would accept straight cut gears if it made this possible. If you know someone that can do broaches, you've pretty much got it. You just need a transmission to spec out and get your numbers. And select the proper material for the gears. Then it's CAD time.
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Old 11-26-2008, 01:32 AM   #44
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an external broach? good luck, your friend would need a broach for each different gear in the exact pitch and # of teeth for all the transmission gears, and those cutters are probably $3000-4000 each.

lets see, I have two dozen gear cutting machines at work...what to do, what to do...

hell once I make the blank it'll only take half an hour to setup the machine and another hour to make the gear, at any helical angle you'd like. anyone know the Dp of miata transmission gears? or is it a mod

and what's the internal like, just a spline? now those I broach, but we probably don't have the exact broach needed for them. no problem if that's the case, we've got a cnc shaper right next to the cnc hob

I guarantee you I'm the foremost expert of gear manufacturing on this board, if you have a question for me I'll answer them, but even if I was greedy and only put my set of gears through the shop it would take a while, plus there's heat treating, which my company outsources, so it'd actually cost money, and if there's any shaving that needs to be done we don't do that either.

Last edited by curly; 11-26-2008 at 01:52 AM.
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Old 11-26-2008, 01:36 AM   #45
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What kind of turn around time are we looking at? And what kind of compensation would I be looking at?
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Old 11-26-2008, 01:59 AM   #46
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The dirty is in the details with cost. Material, material process (usaully batch cost not alot of money), machine rent time(if any), operator time which is directly attached to the geometry of gears. I could spec the geometry of the part, and we could work together on the details if you wanted to do it. There is alot of play with how "helical" the part is and to how much strength you get in the gear, and ofcourse material spec is a major factor. Sounds like his shop cuts soft and treats to spec, which will deform the part. So 2 runs the through machine?

If we joined forces and made something like that quaife would be pissed.
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Old 11-26-2008, 02:53 AM   #47
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I'm sure Apexonyou will help with traction bars as well, he did run a 11.999 or something like that IIRC.
Wheel hop isn't common for me, it randomly happens maybe four times a year at the track. I don't think I know how to even induce it, so I would be worthless on that one.
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Old 11-26-2008, 08:43 AM   #48
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hard cutting is fairly rare, although possible. but no, we don't do it. it requires some very robust fixtures to make it as rigid as possible, and the feeds and speeds are made that much more important.

usually you cut the gear soft leaving it a few thou oversize, carborize, then do a post heat treat shaving process, with a machine that we don't have.

we'd be right at if not over quafie's price by the time we're done.
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Old 11-26-2008, 09:31 AM   #49
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Traction bars. Something that helps with wheel hop basically. Most miatas are plagued with it and there aren't any solutions to it. There's a few designs that would possibly solve the issue. One would be system that mounts to the outer end of the A arms and then comes forward an inward and hinges to the sub frame area. Might hurt ground clearance a spec though, but if it proved to kill wheel hope and make launching more predictable, it would be well worth it. My experience shows that the factory suspension allows the tires to move forward over 1.5".
200-300 for these, depending on how well they worked. If there was a small test batch sold cheaper I'd happly be a geany pig.

Parts to retrofit 11" VW Corrado brake rotors to the front. There's a thread going on about this right now. People even posted the specs on the parts and even the CAD files. Just need someone to step up and have the parts produced and tested.
Sorry to thread jack.. I'm on both of these.. ETD Racing is know for their traction bars and John and I have already had my car in the air to figure out a simple way to mount them. He is re-designing his CRX bar at this time, and then we are hoping to get my car in the shop to do the Miata version.

Check ETDRacing.com for their Honda Traction bars.

As for the big brakes.. It will be very soon.. I have some simple fuel rail fittings been made this week, and then I can try and push the brackets and center things in the works as it is a simplish part.
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Old 11-26-2008, 09:36 AM   #50
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Short shifter I could do, but I don't have a 6 speed. Anyone want to yank their 6 speed shifter and send it to me?
How long would you need it for? I have one sitting in my basement so just let me know. Thanks.
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Old 11-26-2008, 10:12 AM   #51
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hard cutting is fairly rare, although possible. but no, we don't do it. it requires some very robust fixtures to make it as rigid as possible, and the feeds and speeds are made that much more important.

usually you cut the gear soft leaving it a few thou oversize, carborize, then do a post heat treat shaving process, with a machine that we don't have.

we'd be right at if not over quafie's price by the time we're done.
Curly clearly knows his gear ****.

With the gears I re-engineered a while back (worked with three outside fabricators) we used nitriding for the gears that had internal splines. The nitriding is not as deep as carburizing, but it does not warp the gears as much and therefore there is not a need for a post-grinding operation which is a bitch with internal splines (at least expensive). So maybe nitriding could be used instead. I think those were 4340 steel.

You can also through-harden. We had some gears that were made from 300M which is an ultrahigh strength steel. That can be quenched and tempered to 280ksi, which is at or above Rockwell C60 hardness. No need for case treatments; it is really strong stuff. Those had to be post-ground because the quench warped the teeth slightly and they were not machinable at that point. Those particular ones were external spur gears only (that were used in a large planetary drive) so they could be post-ground easier. The only problem with 300M gears is that they are brittle; the alignments have to be very, very good since they do not wear in if they are slightly misaligned. They just break. In fact some of them were crowned for this reason. I think 300M has fallen out of vogue, at least with the Navy.

If you try to duplicate the Mazda gear pitches, send those bitches off to be checked on a scanning CMM. Forest City Gear used to have one. Sometimes the designers will use weird pitches, like 12.38 instead of 12. That is what was going on with ours. If you check it with pitch gauges you can miss it.

Last edited by ZX-Tex; 11-26-2008 at 10:25 AM.
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Old 11-26-2008, 11:18 AM   #52
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Sorry to thread jack.. I'm on both of these.. ETD Racing is know for their traction bars and John and I have already had my car in the air to figure out a simple way to mount them. He is re-designing his CRX bar at this time, and then we are hoping to get my car in the shop to do the Miata version.

Check ETDRacing.com for their Honda Traction bars.

As for the big brakes.. It will be very soon.. I have some simple fuel rail fittings been made this week, and then I can try and push the brackets and center things in the works as it is a simplish part.
I don't have the name or the following you do, its not like I'm going to rip away your profits. The brake brackets like I've said before do not work correctly, they have to be redesigned. They have resonances, and dynamic fatigue failure nodes riveting through them. After putting 8 hours of engineering time into a 5 and a half inch bracket I feel confident its the omega for the cost.

I was going out to fire up the T.I.G. to start working on the traction bars, whats the harm in a little competition. Its motivating.
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Old 11-26-2008, 12:07 PM   #53
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Go for the traction bars Travis, at the rate m-tuned is putting out new items he won't even bring a set to the market until 2012. And like you said, competition is good.
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Old 11-26-2008, 12:46 PM   #54
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After putting 8 hours of engineering time into a 5 and a half inch bracket I feel confident its the omega for the cost.
Please convert this sentence into an equation so we can understand it easier.
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Old 11-26-2008, 01:38 PM   #55
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hard cutting is fairly rare, although possible. but no, we don't do it. it requires some very robust fixtures to make it as rigid as possible, and the feeds and speeds are made that much more important.

usually you cut the gear soft leaving it a few thou oversize, carborize, then do a post heat treat shaving process, with a machine that we don't have.

we'd be right at if not over quafie's price by the time we're done.
Sounds like you know your ****. IIRC, the gears do not mount on a spline. The shafts the gears press on are just round and then a flat ground on the to act as a key. So a broach would be needed to cut this shape on the inside of the gears. And no, I wasn't saying broach the outside of the gears. Just saying cutters for straight tooth gears are easy to get.

Well, building a 3K dollar set of gears won't do us any good. What could we do/what sacrifices could be made to make them cheaper? Is there any material that could be purchased and machined to spec without further heat treating? I mean, if you can freely machine some steel that's stronger than the factory gears, it may be the way to go.
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Old 11-26-2008, 02:11 PM   #56
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Sorry to thread jack.. I'm on both of these.. ETD Racing is know for their traction bars and John and I have already had my car in the air to figure out a simple way to mount them. He is re-designing his CRX bar at this time, and then we are hoping to get my car in the shop to do the Miata version.

Check ETDRacing.com for their Honda Traction bars.

As for the big brakes.. It will be very soon.. I have some simple fuel rail fittings been made this week, and then I can try and push the brackets and center things in the works as it is a simplish part.
Well, M-tuned is known for taking forever to develop something. And not testing their products.
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Old 11-26-2008, 02:14 PM   #57
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Well, M-tuned is known for taking forever to develop something. And not testing their products.
Taking forever sometimes - YES
Not Testing??? - NO

I've personally tested almost every product we sell? Only thing I don't test is custom stuff!
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Old 11-26-2008, 02:26 PM   #58
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Traction bars on a Miata!
Why not to add cart springs with hanger extensions also?
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Old 11-26-2008, 02:34 PM   #59
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a turbo ii trany adapter kit. Everything that a person would need to adapt a tii trany to their miata.
+1
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Old 11-26-2008, 07:58 PM   #60
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if you hob a harder material, you'll start going through hobs, and like I said before, the fixtures need to very very rigid, with the barrel being a mere .01" under the max base diameter.

helical or straight doesn't make it any cheaper for a cnc machine that barely notices the difference between the two. the problem arises when you start looking at quality class.

at my work, we make a quality class 8 gear. not very impressive, but we work with very large, slow speed equipment. we do have a fair number of high pitch line velocity drop box gears which transfer the high rpm of a tractor PTO to our winches, and they're cut at a quality class 10 I think. Transmission gears are typically a quality class 12 or higher. which means they'd most definitely need a post heat treat grind, with maybe even a pre heat treat shave.

ordinarily we don't even do anything to the gear after carborize (thru hardening) we just machine them to the bottom of the tolerance and it comes back from heat treat at nominal.

I could kick out a set of straight cut gears, quality class 10ish, carborized with a ground inner diameter for a grand maybe, but they'd most likey blow up due to the "poor" quality (poor only relative to Mazda stock gears) If you add in the cost for making a proper quality gear with the right bore design, you'll realize the quafie's price is INCREDIBLY affordable.

I made a shaft at work today, 2.5" diameter, 30ish inches long, with two different splines at each end, and a ground bearing diameter at one, and a cross hole for a spring pin through one of the splines. it was sent out to heat treat the splines, and then will be sold to the customer for $1900 a piece. that's one shaft with splines, which are much less important than gears (no rotating mesh) pay $900 more and you've got yourself a full set of miata gears? amazing.

What I'm trying to say is you need a transmission gear shop to make transmission gears, go figure. And that's exactly what Quaife is. Anything else might work but you're looking at horrendous noise and a very sketchy life expectancy.
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