Why doesn't Garrett or Borg make these for tuner applications? - Page 2 - Miata Turbo Forum - Boost cars, acquire cats.

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Old 04-03-2012, 03:30 PM   #21
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Lol! Greater tolerance of heat vs VGT turbos.
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Old 04-03-2012, 03:43 PM   #22
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First off, pet peeve:

Quote:
Originally Posted by BogusSVO View Post
Cummings VGT
Cummings is a poet (and probably a **** star, I didn't look that hard). Cummins is a power equipment manufacturer.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Boost Joose View Post
If this is true, why do so many people run Holset's?
Read what I actually wrote, please. I never said that no diesel turbo will work in a gas application. I said that no VGT diesel turbo will work in a gas application. There are people that do it, but nobody who road races or really abuses them (that I can find). I also know of no OEM that uses VGT turbos on gas engines (aside from Porsche at $5200 a pop).

It's very easy to figure out how much horsepower a diesel turbo will make on gas engine - it's about the same amount of horsepower the diesel turbo made on a diesel engine. Airflow is not magical.
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Old 04-03-2012, 03:53 PM   #23
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According to Wikipedia, 3 manufacturers tried it in the late 80s and early 90s (Dodge/Shelby, Honda, and Peugeot). Nobody else was dumb enough to attempt it until Porsche in 2007, so that should give you a pretty good idea of the difficulty of making it work.
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Old 04-03-2012, 04:49 PM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Boost Joose View Post
If this is true, why do so many people run Holset's?
VGT Holset turbos? I don't know of anyone racing a car reliably with a Holset.
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Old 04-03-2012, 04:57 PM   #25
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Going back to my earlier statement with the HE351VE. These turbos will run on gas engines and can be tuned but it is all very experimental and finicky. I can back up what Savington states and tell you that the VGT tuning right now has mostly been done with a wastegate actuator hooked up to the Vane arm where the actuator pushes the vanes open as boost rises. This is not an exact science and is mostly used in experimental applications.

The electronic controllers that have been designed are very crude and nothing even close to a 16x16 map where you could input values for the vanes. I have ran traditional Holset turbos without issues but the VGT are something that could only be used for fun experimental applications and would eat itself on repeated race duty.
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Old 04-03-2012, 05:15 PM   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Savington View Post
First off, pet peeve:



Cummings is a poet (and probably a **** star, I didn't look that hard). Cummins is a power equipment manufacturer.



Read what I actually wrote, please. I never said that no diesel turbo will work in a gas application. I said that no VGT diesel turbo will work in a gas application. There are people that do it, but nobody who road races or really abuses them (that I can find). I also know of no OEM that uses VGT turbos on gas engines (aside from Porsche at $5200 a pop).

It's very easy to figure out how much horsepower a diesel turbo will make on gas engine - it's about the same amount of horsepower the diesel turbo made on a diesel engine. Airflow is not magical.
....you never answered my question earlier about the flow of the 997 turbo? How much CFM will one flow?
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Old 04-03-2012, 05:32 PM   #27
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From what I have read the Porsche BW BV50 turbo flows around 600 - 650 CFM whcih puts it right between a GT28 and a GT30
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Old 04-03-2012, 05:44 PM   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lgt2000 View Post
From what I have read the Porsche BW BV50 turbo flows around 600 - 650 CFM whcih puts it right between a GT28 and a GT30
Actually, if 650 is the number thats between a GTX30 and GTX35......
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Old 04-03-2012, 06:19 PM   #29
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lol @ 21psi on a GTX3582 and expecting to ever make that kind of power on a Miata:
...and doing it at 2500rpm as you said earlier.
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Old 04-03-2012, 06:42 PM   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hustler View Post
lol @ 21psi on a GTX3582 and expecting to ever make that kind of power on a Miata:
...and doing it at 2500rpm as you said earlier.
Please stay out of my threads as you are dumb as ***. When I said 650 CFM that's referring to peak flow. With a VGT a turbo that flows that much at peak power, could spool anywhere from 1-3 thousand rpms sooner than a traditional turbo depending on engine and powerband. Thats why I'm suggesting possible usage. As you see I'd like to make more than 200 whp like you, kthx. gby
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Old 04-03-2012, 07:07 PM   #31
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you really think a puny 1.8L is going to spin the turbine hard enough to rotate a 82mm wheel fast enough to make those rpms/flow levels before redline?
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Old 04-03-2012, 07:07 PM   #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Savington View Post
According to Wikipedia, 3 manufacturers tried it in the late 80s and early 90s (Dodge/Shelby, Honda, and Peugeot). Nobody else was dumb enough to attempt it until Porsche in 2007, so that should give you a pretty good idea of the difficulty of making it work.
I guess you've never heard of the Acura RDX.....
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Old 04-03-2012, 07:34 PM   #33
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IIRC the RDX turbo just uses a flapper valve to reduce/increase flow...not quite VGT technology, more like VA/RT


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Old 04-03-2012, 07:39 PM   #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Braineack View Post
you really think a puny 1.8L is going to spin the turbine hard enough to rotate a 82mm wheel fast enough to make those rpms/flow levels before redline?
Nothing I'm referring to has a 82mm compressor wheel.....I've been looking at the stock GT2 and 997 TT turbos and they look to be about the size of a GT28 or GT30 (7X compressor wheel) I can get one or two at a local Porsche tuner for a decent price. Considering these are the only turbo's intended for gasoline use, these are the only ones I would consider for track use. Currently my only issues are the actual size of the turbo. Will it be worth the trouble of using this turbo for possibily less power than my GTX3071? How much sooner will it actually spool? What are the vanes controlled by?(oil psi or electronicly) can my AEM be used to tune assuming they are controlled electronically? Will any tuner know wtf is going on and how to control it?

IMO I think one of the GT2/997 turbos would be best suited for someone in the 300-400 whp range. But I'm not rulin git out yet. More info/details to come tomorrow. If I pick up 2 would anyone be interested in the other?? They'll most likely only sell then in pairs because thats how they come.
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Old 04-03-2012, 07:40 PM   #35
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nah i bet you could get just one. what if only one turbo needed replacing. and you need to make sure only to get the correctly oriented one.
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Old 04-03-2012, 07:43 PM   #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Braineack View Post
you need to make sure only to get the correctly oriented one.
Yea, I thought about that....couldn't you just clock the other one somehow to make it usable?
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Old 04-03-2012, 07:57 PM   #37
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Update: Just got off the phone with Full Race.....said only the Porsche's ECU could control the vanes(electronically) and as far as he knew there was no standalone ECU compatable for vane control/tuning....
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Old 04-03-2012, 08:09 PM   #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Boost Joose View Post
Update: Just got off the phone with Full Race.....said only the Porsche's ECU could control the vanes(electronically) and as far as he knew there was no standalone ECU compatable for vane control/tuning....
Probably has an integrated CAN controller just like the HE351VE.

At the core though, you're still pretty much just talking about a stepper motor. I know some people have taken apart the HE351 vane controller and wired uC based driver to it directly, so I'm sure something similar is possible with the porsche turbos.
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Old 04-03-2012, 08:13 PM   #39
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Update: Just got off the phone with AEM tech and they dont make or have anything that can control the vanes.....

I would love to see this done but I'd also just like to get my car running so for now looks like I'll just stick with ole trusty 3071 and make 500 whp.....:-)

Anyone wanting to try I can get you a turbo, or 2
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Old 04-03-2012, 08:16 PM   #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Boost Joose View Post
Please stay out of my threads as you are dumb as ***. When I said 650 CFM that's referring to peak flow. With a VGT a turbo that flows that much at peak power, could spool anywhere from 1-3 thousand rpms sooner than a traditional turbo depending on engine and powerband. Thats why I'm suggesting possible usage. As you see I'd like to make more than 200 whp like you, kthx. gby
You're the one that said "target boost at 2500rpm" which is roughly 40lb/min and never going to happen. I'm also going to call Geoff and let him know that you're a huge pain in the *** and that he should probably tell his staff not to speak to you anymore.


260whp and there isn't enough horsepower in the world for you to ever keep up with me on a track. I also have a running, turbo Miata. Beat that.
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