hustler's dyno thread - Page 4 - Miata Turbo Forum - Boost cars, acquire cats.

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Old 02-08-2009, 03:30 PM   #61
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Originally Posted by patsmx5 View Post
Something don't sound right. My turbo's bigger than yours and it's at 11 PSI by 3200 from a 4th gear pull. I suspect your WG isn't right personally. I'm guessing it's an internal WG?
h-e-a-d-w-o-r-k
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Old 02-08-2009, 03:46 PM   #62
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h-e-a-d-w-o-r-k
Yeah, but that can't be a 1200 RPM difference and I'm running a bigger turbine. Headwork helps more at high end where a stock engine's VE goes to ****, mine doesn't.

Hustler, what's your AFR's at 100kPa, 120kPa, 140kPa, 150kPa, etc? I have found that running this AFR target map helped spool a ton. I wouldn't be afraid to run it on a track either.

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Old 02-08-2009, 04:24 PM   #63
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h-e-a-d-w-o-r-k
hustler's on a 99 head right? I have an 01 and/but I've got a bigger compressor. and even with the VVT set to full retard (worst spool), I'm at 9psi at 4000 rpm.
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Old 02-08-2009, 04:37 PM   #64
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I still dont understand why you have tuned your car so rich off boost pat. There is really no reason to run more rich than stoich under 70kpa except at idle.
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Old 02-08-2009, 04:41 PM   #65
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I still dont understand why you have tuned your car so rich off boost pat. There is really no reason to run more rich than stoich under 70kpa except at idle.
It runs stronger and smoother. That's why. Personal preference.

Hustler does run a 99' head w/ 8.5:1 comp. pistons as y8s would know.
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Old 02-08-2009, 05:16 PM   #66
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With Miatas, I have found the opposite. Ben has said his car makes more power at 11.4 than 11.8. Hustler found MBT on pump gas () at 11.6 or so. I was able to add 3-4 degrees of timing by reducing AFRs by 8/10ths of a point, and from what I've seen on other cars that 3-4 degrees of timing is worth 15-20whp.
Quoted for truth, though I think that lowering your AFR doesn't create whp by default but allows more timing?
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Old 02-08-2009, 05:57 PM   #67
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Holy ****.

Awesome. Still trying to figure out some little **** on mine. I want to do the VTPS mod and see if it helps throttle response any on mine and then find someone around here to tune the damn thing.
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Old 02-08-2009, 06:17 PM   #68
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^let me know when you do.
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Old 02-08-2009, 06:30 PM   #69
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^let me know when you do.
BRE in concord (I think concord) tunes MS, but I haven't talked to them nor do I know anything about them.

I might go talk to them. On Fridays, they do offer 50 bucks and hour rental on their dyno. though, might be worth taking advantage of.

I've got a few friends with trucks and trailers, I was thinking about a road trip to ATL and a visit DIY if they were available.

I really want to get this thing decently tuned for the #1 CCR event at Carowinds on the 22nd.
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Old 02-08-2009, 07:00 PM   #70
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Originally Posted by Savington View Post
With Miatas, I have found the opposite. Ben has said his car makes more power at 11.4 than 11.8. Hustler found MBT on pump gas () at 11.6 or so. I was able to add 3-4 degrees of timing by reducing AFRs by 8/10ths of a point, and from what I've seen on other cars that 3-4 degrees of timing is worth 15-20whp.
Interesting. I will have to play around with this when I start tuning the miata. My guess is there will be a point when it is too rich low 11's high 10's probably Savington?

Do you agree though less fuel during spoolup and after torque peak would help?
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Old 02-08-2009, 07:12 PM   #71
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Originally Posted by patsmx5 View Post
Yeah, but that can't be a 1200 RPM difference and I'm running a bigger turbine. Headwork helps more at high end where a stock engine's VE goes to ****, mine doesn't.

Hustler, what's your AFR's at 100kPa, 120kPa, 140kPa, 150kPa, etc? I have found that running this AFR target map helped spool a ton. I wouldn't be afraid to run it on a track either.

I just did ramp runs with this as a ballpark target.


8.5:1 vs 9.5:1
and...
if you look at the tach, it makes 11psi at 3800, 15psi at 4200. According to the MS log, its later. (my rev limitter is set at 7100hard, and it looks like 7500rpm on the tach)

Chucky, thanks for the advice but I'm not leaning the AFR out in boost because I lost whp from leaning it out on the dyno. I'm eventually going to get to the dyno again, but I'm not going to change **** arbitrarily.
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Old 02-08-2009, 07:23 PM   #72
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I just did ramp runs with this as a ballpark target.


8.5:1 vs 9.5:1
and...
if you look at the tach, it makes 11psi at 3800, 15psi at 4200. According to the MS log, its later. (my rev limitter is set at 7100hard, and it looks like 7500rpm on the tach)

Chucky, thanks for the advice but I'm not leaning the AFR out in boost because I lost whp from leaning it out on the dyno. I'm eventually going to get to the dyno again, but I'm not going to change **** arbitrarily.
I'm around 8.5:1 compression after the headwork. You know this too. Compression isn't the problem. My number are based off of a datalog. My tach doesn't even work.

Yeah, that's richer than ideal for spool up land. Again, are you sure the wastegate arm thingy is adjusted so that it's tight? I would think you could spool that turbo better.
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Old 02-08-2009, 07:26 PM   #73
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Yeah, that's richer than ideal for spool up land. Again, are you sure the wastegate arm thingy is adjusted so that it's tight? I would think you could spool that turbo better.
I'll check that when it cools off. Unfortunately the boost controller I borrowed lost a fitting...so I can't play with this **** anymore.
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Old 02-08-2009, 07:45 PM   #74
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Not sure if you knew this but autotune is rough adjustment, you still need to go back and fine tune it. There are a few threads about tuning on msefi that could help with tuning if you're interested.
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Old 02-08-2009, 08:21 PM   #75
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Not sure if you knew this but autotune is rough adjustment, you still need to go back and fine tune it. There are a few threads about tuning on msefi that could help with tuning if you're interested.
please, allow me to bitch:
1) I spent time and money on the dyno to dial it in
2) autotune doesn't work (like it won't tune)
3) did you look at my log? its tuned
4) I don't run my AFR as lean as you because the dyno suggested otherwise

do you seriously think I spent money and time on a dyno without fine-tuning anything? At what point in the thread did you assume I auto-tuned and called it a day?

If you want to help, which I would really appreciate, please provide a bit more detail considering I've posted the log and table. Just telling me to "not use auto-tune" is moderately insulting.
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Old 02-08-2009, 08:31 PM   #76
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Interesting. I will have to play around with this when I start tuning the miata. My guess is there will be a point when it is too rich low 11's high 10's probably Savington?

Do you agree though less fuel during spoolup and after torque peak would help?
I dono, I've never been to the dyno. I'd say mid 11s are what you want to shoot for, unless more fuel lets you run more timing and get more power. If you're like Hustler and you can get to max peak torque on pump gas, then there's no use in fattening it up further.

At spoolup, it needs to be played with too. There's two schools of thought: either you lean it out and the heat spools the turbo, or you fatten it up and the exhaust flow spools the turbo. **** if I care, though, my turbo is the size of a grape
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Old 02-08-2009, 08:44 PM   #77
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I dono, I've never been to the dyno. I'd say mid 11s are what you want to shoot for, unless more fuel lets you run more timing and get more power. If you're like Hustler and you can get to max peak torque on pump gas, then there's no use in fattening it up further.

At spoolup, it needs to be played with too. There's two schools of thought: either you lean it out and the heat spools the turbo, or you fatten it up and the exhaust flow spools the turbo. **** if I care, though, my turbo is the size of a grape
Indeed there are two schools of thought here.

I originally had it ALLL figured out. I'd tune the spark agressive and it pig rich as soon as I go into boost. I'm talking straight 11:1 from 100kPa up. Well, it worked, but I got full boost at 4500 RPMs. Kinda sucked. And the thing just felt like it fell on its' face at boost onset. Well, because it was.

So I started adjusting timing. My map was retarded 7* from what I thought would be optimal for MBT (as a funny aside, I should post it and compare it to Huslters). So I advanced my map 4* and found it helped everywhere, but it still had that fall-on-your-face feel going into boost.

So I started leaning it out. After making 10 different AFR tables and logging all in the same two day period, I settled on the one I posted above. Going leaner would help spool a spec, but I found my map as the best compromise of rich when in boost, and lean enough to have decent spool. I'll also note that I had to pull a spec of timing in the low boost region when going from 11:1 to 12:1. Overall, it was better though.

However, as some here have mentioned, at full boost, rich and advanced is the winning combo. Rich keeps you safe and lets you dial in a bit more advance which makes more power, safely. Sure, you could run say 12.8:1 and pull 4* out of the high boost cells. Probably make similar power. But your setup will now have higher EGT's and be on the verge of knock. Where my rich and advanced setup is safer and has lower EGT's.

And by the way, I have a thread titled "AFR's and powa" if yall wanna take this discussion there instead of hustler's dyno thread.
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Old 02-08-2009, 09:22 PM   #78
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And by the way, I have a thread titled "AFR's and powa" if yall wanna take this discussion there instead of hustler's dyno thread.
I learned that spark advance and leaning out fuel are both independant variables. There are no constants or absolutes in either variable when compared to boost level, turbo "spool", or rpm (unless you hit MBT, then its easy lol).

I hit mbt at 16psi from 5900-7200rpm. Then I pulled 2-point in the VE table to get torque up, but lost hp and torque. I used the eddy control dyno as it was intended...to lock wheel speed. I adjusted both fuel and spark independently, and these tables are the end result.

I hope this thread shows everyone here that dynotuning is worth every penny. I gained 29whp at 11psi before I started upping the boost...not bad for $100 in dyno time and a little "trial and error."

However, every motor is different, and although many people here expressed an opinion as an absolute, no one tried those ideas on a dyno. The best information in this thread came from Ben by suggesting someone who knows what they're doing tune the car...because I'm lost, lol.

so, who's going to be the first to load up my spark map on a 9.5:1, 91-octane motor and make INSANE POWERZ!!! I'm certain that someone will do it.
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Old 02-08-2009, 09:47 PM   #79
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my stock block spark map looks like yours but i run 93

actually i lied, it's very similar just a couple degrees lower
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Old 02-08-2009, 09:57 PM   #80
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Originally Posted by hustler View Post
please, allow me to bitch:
1) I spent time and money on the dyno to dial it in
2) autotune doesn't work (like it won't tune)
3) did you look at my log? its tuned
4) I don't run my AFR as lean as you because the dyno suggested otherwise

do you seriously think I spent money and time on a dyno without fine-tuning anything? At what point in the thread did you assume I auto-tuned and called it a day?

If you want to help, which I would really appreciate, please provide a bit more detail considering I've posted the log and table. Just telling me to "not use auto-tune" is moderately insulting.
I meant no disrespect I only saw that people were only talking about autotune afrs. I saw your fuel map was fine tuned however I wasn't sure if you had just smoothed it out or if you had fine tuned it. After reading your latest post about your tuning method I now know you did it the right way. Also I have dynoed tuned 5 vehicles. 3 I6's and 2 v8's. I have road tuned alot more. So I am talking from experience and not from just reading stuff.

Either way your tune looks to be good.. Myself I would definetly pull fuel during spoolup. This has improved my spoolup on every vehicle. Also another thing you can try instead of pulling fuel on the top-end is advance timing some more. On a crappy non-crossflow head engine I would add 4-5 degrees after torque peak.

One thing I just noticed you are running a cat. If you were running rich for a few days then you could have burnt up your cat and clogged it. Might be something to check out.

Last edited by ChuckyZ; 02-09-2009 at 03:28 AM.
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